Babygirl

Raechel Anne Jolie guests to talk dominant/submissive dynamics, corporate feminism, and the limits of personal liberation in the 2024 film Babygirl. Full transcript available here.

To follow Raechel's work, visit her website and Instagram. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Whatever, I’ll Watch It

Season 1 Episode 17

“Babygirl” Transcript

Alexia: You're listening to Whatever, I'll Watch It, a podcast bringing queer of color critique to movies and TV. Each episode me and a guest pick a film or television series we love or love to hate. And we'll talk gender, race, sexuality, and all things representation.

Alexia: Hello! Welcome back everyone to the pod. First episode of the New Year, first episode since March of 2024. It was a year for me, probably for y'all, too. But the film today and the guest that I have has me so excited that I crawled out of hibernation. We're talking Babygirl. We're talking kink. We're talking desire. We're talking the ways that everyone is misunderstanding this film. And how irritating it is. And we have a very special guest, Raechel Anne Jolie.

Raechel: Hi, I'm so happy to finally be here. We've been, yeah, like longtime friends and kind of collaborators in the academic sense. But it's so exciting since we first found each other because of a podcast to now be podcast collaborating. So thank you, Alexia, I'm so happy to be here.

Alexia: Yeah, I'm stoked. You're someone who I've always known would be on the podcast. Eventually. And I feel like, there's different movies we've texted about you may be on for, but this one rolled around, and it's just meant to be.

Raechel: Yeah, for sure.

Raechel: Yay.

Alexia: So, Raechel, can you let our audience know a little bit about yourself? Whatever you'd like to share.

Raechel: Yeah, I am a writer and educator. I have a memoir called Rust Belt Femme that came out almost exactly five years ago this march.

Alexia: What?

Raechel: Totally bonkers. Yeah, the month, the month the pandemic started it came out so no wonder.

Raechel: Been a weird five years. Yeah, let's see what else I live in so-called Cleveland, Ohio, on Erie and Mississauga land. I am an anarchist. I'm a huge fan of movies and TV shows and music and pop culture and love thinking about thinking about the media.

Alexia: Hell yes, can't believe your book came out five years ago. That's wild. Yeah, definitely encourage listeners to pick it up.

Alexia: And it feels kind of important to me, too, like entering into the conversation to be very clear. I feel comfortable speaking for you, correct me if I'm wrong, that we're approaching this as queer, kinky femmes, which I think is a lot of the perspective that is completely missing from the way that I'm seeing people engage with this movie. So.

Raechel: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, that's definitely part of my bio also.

Alexia: Love it. So before we get into it, kind of a low stakes question. But I'm just curious, like, what was your theater experience like?

Raechel: Great question, so not super crowded. It was the Friday after Christmas, so like days after it came out, and it was a smaller theater at this, like indie theater that is near me. Well, Indie, I mean, it shows a bunch of different films. But there was an older couple in front of us that was basically silent, sort of energetically uncomfortable. There was a younger couple. And the guy was just he just took up a lot of space like, even before the movie started. He just took up space. So just like not great vibes like, just like a pretty normie straight couple with kind of an obnoxious dude. There was like maybe, some laughter from them at some points, but mostly quite quiet. And then there was a really sweet older lady by herself in the front row, who, I think, probably enjoyed it based on her vibes. And then it was me and my partner and a good friend of mine, who is also a really cool, queer, kinky feminist person. But yeah, we didn't get a crowd that was like hooting and hollering.

Raechel: Or nor did we see anybody walk out, and I know that has been an experience for others. So what about you?

Alexia: So I saw it twice. The first time I saw it, it was also the weekend after Christmas, and man, we had some teens behind us, and they giggled through the entire movie. And from the outset it was clear, like, okay, they're gonna be gigglers. They're going to be annoying. I really tried to like just to immerse myself in the film and not let it kind of distract me, which I think I did okay at. We were lucky that the speakers at the theater were very high, so it was like it was very loud, and the soundtrack is so good, and there's so much like pulsing music that could kind of fade away.

Alexia: But the second time I went I was really grateful because it seemed to be an adult audience. Everyone was quiet. People laugh. But the points where you should laugh which, like, I think, this movie is actually hilarious makes sense, but not like nervous giggling anytime there's intimacy or nudity.

Raechel: Totally. Yes, quick responses to that one. Did you know that the soundtrack to the score was done by the guy who does The White Lotus?

Alexia: I did hear that, and it makes total sense.

Raechel: Total sense. Yeah, super excellent for this. And yeah, the laughter thing like when I wrote about the movie. And just reading it back. I was like, oh, I'm acting so serious about this. But it is. It is serious, and it is hot, I think, in many ways, but there are also these like camp elements, and also like sex and D/s is really funny sometimes. So like

Raechel: There are moments that are absolutely appropriate to laugh. But yeah, you can tell the people who are like, like I did a bunch of like [chuckles] Oh, I feel like, okay, I see what's happening here versus the like, yeah, nervous laughter, or like laughter of people who maybe have not experienced some of these feelings and sensations.

Raechel: Which is fine like I mean, not everybody needs to have these experiences or be part of this, like have these desires, but it does land really differently if you like get it. 

Alexia: Yeah, I feel like it kind of ties back to what the film is about, too. It just shows how uncomfortable it is, I can't speak for everyone, I would say most Americans with sex and sexuality, especially seeing it in this really raw and realistic way, that I think the film portrays things. Yeah. I was just like, huh, this feels very meta right now, like, this is kind of the point.

Raechel: Totally. Totally. I think that's right. Yeah.

Alexia: But, Raechel, why are you excited to talk about this film? Why, I mean, I can guess. But like what is bringing you here today, and before we kind of get into some nitty gritty, I was wondering if there's any kind of overall, like hot takes theories or impressions you want to share as kind of like the basis for the conversation we're going to move into?

Raechel: Yeah, I think. Well, I'll go back to the theater experience sort of as a transition. And to answer this question at the end of the movie. My partner and friend and I were just like, really quiet. And there was this moment that I was like, there is a way that I could respond to this film way less favorably than I ultimately ended up landing on it. And because there were, there are definitely interpretations, or there are ways that I could have chosen to sort of engage with it, that I think could have been a lot more about heteronormativity and whiteness and corporate girl bossery, and you know flaws in the consent model.

Raechel: But I was so grateful to be with the folks that I saw it with, who do have experiences in kink. And I'll yeah, I'll keep people vaguely anonymous. So that they're yeah, they can decide if they want to talk about that. But we ultimately like the first thing I said so I think I said the word. So… and then my friend was like, maybe the hottest movie I've ever seen. And I was like, yes, and so then we just got to sort of start by indulging in the pleasure of seeing representation. You know, I know you know very, very well from this podcast and what I know you think about like there it is so flawed to like, think that representation will save us, and of course representation is always imperfect and like there are all of these things, but it is really satisfying when you see these moments of like, oh, somebody who understands subspace, the power of a D/s dynamic like made this movie. It's not… 

Raechel: I mean I don't know the you know the entire background of the Shades of Grey writer, but it just feels so much more aware and intimate and distinct this movie than those sort of generic sort of D/s representations. So it just felt satisfying to be like, oh, like somebody who gets this made this movie so that we took a really pleasure focus lens on sort of the conversation that followed.

Raechel: So that's a thing like I had. I took pleasure in it. I took pleasure in the movie, and not in like a horny way, you know, like it though it clearly did have like pornographic and erotic moments but more like oh, like I feel a little I feel seen in in some of the moments which was also a very disidentification moment because she's this is like this very, very rich lady. Which I'm usually like a lot more resistant to identifying with.

Raechel: So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, I think it is you know, feminism put after me, too, has been a disaster like I feel like it is such a. We're such

Raechel: an incoherent movement. There are so many different versions of feminism, and I think you know you and I, as abolitionists, have seen some of the failures of me, too, when it gets super carceral. I think a lot about me, too, in relationship to the early sex wars, and how different feminists sort of approached thinking about sexual violence. And so it was also a really interesting movie for me to bring into the me too conversation because of the way that it portrays this extremely messy.

Raechel: portrayal of power and consent and 

Raechel: harm, etc., so I'll stop there, cause that's more than a general overview. But pleasure and me too, were the first things that I had.

Alexia: Oh, my God, that's all so good. And I feel like we're so on the same page. Which I feel like we might like. You know.

Alexia: I think this could be a controversial episode. I feel like we might piss off some listeners, but also that's the point for me of why I felt so excited to record. Because I feel like these perspectives. I'm not seeing it anywhere else, but I'm in the exact same place where it's like we will discuss those things we will discuss like the boss versus the intern, and like the messiness of consent like we'll get into that.

Alexia: But I'm with you that I think just critiquing that and that being the takeaway from the movie that's just so uninteresting like. I think there's just so much more that to me is so much richer and more interesting and more pleasurable to engage with

Alexia: Then these like really easy and just really superficial critiques. Yeah,

Alexia: and I think something that might be helpful to kind of talk about a bit at the onset outset

Alexia: like that felt really important to me that I took away in my second watching. So I watched the film last night. I realized I was watching it, and I know that you put some notes in our document about how it might have been intentional, which you can elaborate on.

Raechel: But to me this film feels like a fantasy like as I was watching it, I was just like.

Alexia: I don't actually think this is meant to be grounded in reality, and I don't think they were actually meant to take these characters at face value as some sort of model, or as like real people. And you know, I've seen critiques. The characters are undeveloped and like, I think that's intentional, you know. I don't think that's lazy writing, and this will probably come up throughout the conversation, but I like to kind of give people a sense of what I'm talking about, like.

Alexia: you know just how quickly things develop between Romy and Samuel, where it's like the very first meeting they have. The affair starts like the sort of timeline and temporality of it is very strange where, like things are happening very quickly. And there's all of these shots that are really dreamlike, and don't quite make sense like there's a shot of like Romy where she's sitting completely alone in the theater in this like regal outfit after the opening night performance, where ostensibly people would be there, there'd be movement, but it's just her.

Alexia: or like her walking out in her nightgown to the pool, and there's steam coming off the pool like there's just all these sequences that feel extremely surreal

Alexia: as well as like the part where, like when Jacob appears in the doorway after they get out of the pool. The way he's just there. It's like in a dream, you know, where these characters just kind of pop up in dreams and kind of fizzle away. So in my second viewing that just really came clear to me that like, oh, wait! Actually, I don't think this is meant to be grounded in reality, and I think folks who are getting so caught up on like

Alexia: the power dynamic, differential between the boss and the intern, and that being unethical, or Samuel being underdeveloped, I'm just kind of like, yeah, because that doesn't matter. The film is about desire like it's about our fantasies, and it itself is a fantasy, or at least like that's the way that I really was taking it away. This is my second viewing of it.

Raechel: Yeah, I love that. I think that's there. All of those things you pointed out make so much sense in that framework or like through that lens. Rather. I've also seen other people talk about how it was like this weirdly long Christmas season, like, how like, what time span did this actually take place over because it feels like

Raechel: It was a pretty established affair, but it's also like the Christmas season before they, everybody goes home for Christmas, like it's, you know, whatever for so that was in. So I think that brings in that sort of if we want to sort of like, make a clear temporality, and, like the.

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: Like the way time disappears when we are in really heady, overwhelming affairs like that, you know, or like whatever that they consume us. So I think that's really interesting. And I think it's also like I will. I'm not. Gonna this is not my sort of declarative, final thought on this. But I

Raechel: I agree with you because I, because I think that's a great analysis, and  because the filmmaker, Helena Raine, has said explicitly, like you said, that she intended it as a fairy tale. She goes on to say that she thinks of it as sort of a warning of the mess that can happen if you know women in particular.

Alexia: Sort of surprised.

Raechel: Their desires. Which? Yeah, I can. I think I want to.

Raechel: I really like the things I've heard Rain say. I also want to bring even more nuance than what I think is ultimately, maybe, like leans than sort of a girl boss, like female empowerment sort of way. Sometimes.

Alexia: But this.

Raechel: One thing I was gonna say about that fairy tale. Oh.

Raechel: I think you're right about like, clearly, there isn't a ton of character development, especially with Samuel. It is really fast. There are. There are these ways that we can make those critiques. And I think you're right that one way to read. That would be that it is because they're more like archetypes or symbols.

Raechel: But I also think there are these moments that, like

Raechel: Samuel is incredibly human. The fact that he's not like a skilled dom who knows exactly what to do and exactly how to dominate her, and that their first sort of attempt is so messy. I actually really like that.

Raechel: Complex, like a very real sort of flawed.

Raechel: flawed humanity, sort of silliness and messiness of sex that is not at all dreamlike or fairy tale like. So I wonder if that is just simply Helena Rain doing both, giving us both, or.

Alexia: Oh, yeah.

Raechel: Maybe like any art, you know, I'm thinking, as somebody with a book out that, you know I'm like, oh, if only I could have like done that a little differently that would have like made that all kind of work a little better like maybe also, she just like kind of had these multiple ideas and like it just didn't perfectly match, like she had these complex human characters. But it was also kind of a fairy tale, and sometimes that felt a little discordant. I don't know.

Alexia: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Because definitely, the fantasy element doesn't mean that it's flawless because we're going to get into like you mentioned the discomfort and the like figuring things out right, and things aren't always working smoothly with the dynamic. But I don't know. Maybe that's just my past for the film. But I'm going to be like, it's just fantasy.

Alexia: Yeah, like.

Alexia: you know, things I could critique but I feel like we're moving there. So I'm like, should we get into these characters?

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Do you wanna? I mean, we brought up Samuel. But I feel like we need to start with our baby girl. Start with Romy. What do you think?

Raechel: Well, bless Nicole Kidman, I'm really just like

Raechel: a super fan of what she's doing in her late career, just like making weird, bad things like the other Age Gap romance movie she had, which was, did you see that the Zac Efron.

Raechel: Oh, my God, it was so bad! It was so bad! And she's just like whatever I'll be in this like ridiculous made for streaming ROM-com, and then that shows the perfect couple that's like Super Campy, and pretty bad that she was on. So I just like that. She's just like

Raechel: doing wild things, and then making this like female directed, you know, intense, deep, bold, and risky, you know, given all of her sort of on-screen orgasming, etc., that she's getting, you know, very exposed with. So I'm just that's my sort of meta breaking the wall like, I enjoy seeing Nicole Kidman in things right now.

Raechel: I also. And I mean, I kind of said this earlier like. Normally, I'm inclined to hate the rich white Lady CEOs. I'm not eager to sort of root for those kind/s of characters, but I was quite warm to her, and I think it's because we she does an incredible job, like, I think, portraying this like

Raechel: the reality of conflicting desires that I have certainly had in my life of wanting to have this sort of normative like stable, you know, sort of life versus desires that would totally explode certain relationships or certain. You know work situations or whatever it might be. So I really think

Raechel: She did a good job, and I appreciate that this character is representing a lot of what she was, I mean, I also like I mean I. As you know, the listeners won't know, but I wore, like my, the closest thing I have to a corporate lady. It has a button up shirt with a pussy bow. In honor of Romy. I think she's like, in addition to enjoying Nicole Kidman as an actress. It was fun to watch the rich lady in nice clothes like it was. She was stylish like as a femme. I was like, she's

Raechel: work in those outfits. So that was also fun. So I'll pause there. I would love to know more of your thoughts.

Alexia: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad we're shouting out the fashion, because I agree I was dying for every single one of her outfits

Alexia: for me. That also is part of the fantasy part of it. Like we'll definitely critique the White Lady CEOness of the movie, the lean in feminism and all that. But you know there's not a lot of fairy tales based in poverty, you know, unless it's about an escape from poverty, or like.

Raechel: Totally.

Alexia: You know, a darker Hans Christian Andersen tale, so I don't know. I feel like the luxury of her outfits and stuff also lend/s itself to that analysis.

Alexia: But yeah, Romi’s interesting, because, like she does such a good job like you said of showing the conflicting desires in a performance that's like, really subtle, like, or just these really subtle facial expressions that say so much.

Alexia: I don't know. I just. I find her really sympathetic, like I kind of. I have a lot of softness for her. Like. She has a really cute, quirky personality that was surprising, you know.

Alexia: Thank you.

Alexia: Moments that would come out that just felt so different from.

Alexia: you know her sort of solid CEO persona

Alexia: And I guess just getting right into it, like. Obviously, she's a kinky girl. But watching it the second time, I realized that I think, for, like at least half, if not % of the film. I think she's in little space.

Alexia: So I don't know how much BD/SM 101 I'm trying to do in this episode. Part of me is like, y'all can Google it. But you know, like definitely, Romy will get into some of this, but I feel like the core of her kinks circle around like age and pet play.

Alexia: Yeah, but there's a lot of specific moments where I feel like Samuel and Jacob. So it wasn't just Samuel, but these ways it was coming out with Jacob, where she's like slipping in and out this sort of little space, acting really childlike, like she giggles a lot. She gets really fussy like, we'll have these kind of little tantrums, or she can't really communicate.

Alexia: You know how she's feeling like the scene of her under the blanket, like putting a blanket overhead and whispering what she wanted. Yes, there was also I clocked. There were different scenes where she's reaching out for first, it's for Jacob, and then Samuel. She reaches her hand out with this look of desperation.

Alexia: Yeah.

Alexia: And I think the first time is when she surprises Samuel at work, and he has to walk away, and she reaches out.

Raechel: And this.

Alexia: Second time is when she's at the rave with Samuel each.

Alexia: It just looks exactly like a little girl who's like a parent is walking ahead of them, and they like reach their hand out like don't leave me behind like. Grab me.

Raechel: Yeah, that's getting me so emotional. That's so. So true. Those bed scenes with Jacob and even the one where she puts the pillow over her face. She kind of flails her arms, and kinda like.

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: Bed. Oh, my gosh, that makes me so emotional because yeah, that it and it is such a. It is such a cathartic

Raechel: space to be in, especially if you had a kind of a mess of childhood. And

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: Which we know that she had at least an abnormal childhood.

Raechel: That is, that is such a good point. She is absolutely in little space for a lot of this movie. Brilliant, concise. Yes. Reading that, for sure. Yeah.

Alexia: And I think I think for me, that's where, like so much of my sympathy and love and adoration for comes in is like

Alexia: empathizing. You know that I feel and like, you know, I'm also someone who really enjoys head/space play. And before I had language and community and frameworks for understanding it. I didn't even know that I had been slipping and out of head/space, you know, and so like I don't know. I just saw so much of myself in that character, and it gives me so much sympathy for her and for what she's going through, and like the messiness.

Raechel: Yeah. Yeah. And the scene in the kitchen with, obviously, people know this is full of spoilers. So. But this feels like such a spoiler scene. The scene in the kitchen was, or maybe did you say this one where she says you're you know she grabs them, and she's like you're.

Alexia: I am.

Raechel: And it's like it is. It is also like

Raechel: little, little Space child, like desperation like, why did you? Why are you doing that? Yeah, I just seemed like, oh, really intense for me. So.

Alexia: Yeah.

Alexia: That's interesting. Because I feel like in that scene. I saw it more through a lens of primal play.

Raechel: Oh, interesting. Okay, so.

Alexia: Yeah, I kind of like the  main, like sort of kink frames that I like saw in the film is like age play, which we just kind of touched on her, acting as like this, little like needing guidance and like care, pet play, which that one feels a little more obvious, you know, on all fours drinking the milk, getting the treat, whimpering, which we will unpack that more because it's like it's so good. And then the last one would be like primal play, which for me the most obvious one, is the tie scene. So

Alexia: She likes to. Yeah, she had.

Alexia: That's the same scent of this person, and she's like drooling and like sniffing it up and like.

Alexia: The same time that scene that we're seeing, it's contrasting with her getting Botox, like all of these scenes of her trying to like Master Nature. And the animal, like, reduce her animality and be more human. And then, at the same time, we're seeing like, because humans are animals, right? Like, yeah. So it's seeing like a reconnection to that sort of primalness. Yeah. And we don't see a ton of primal play from her like, I think in that moment I think the wrestling that happens with Samuel, where in the very first motel scene, and then yeah, that that scene in the kitchen because she comes and puts his forehead up against him, and she's like you're mine. You're mine.

Raechel: Sure, this kind of.

Alexia: Like.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Dominance, territory, sort of thing happening.

Raechel: Yeah, that's a good point. That's an even better reading. I love it. I think those are like really perfect categories for this, for what we see through her and their relationship. Something else just came up when you said that. And now I can't remember. But that was super smart, so we can leave it there. Yeah, that's the super good points. Oh, I think something about the Botox. I think I loved that.

Raechel: This was like such an incredible D/s story, and there was no impact play like if, as far as I remember, like I mean, we saw some firm neck grabs which looked hot. But there was no yeah, there was no like typical impact play, which. And I read one review that was kind of like, where were the whips and chains, and which is like so annoying and so frustrating that

Alexia: Some people.

Raechel: Think that that's like what D/s is. So I liked that it wasn't there. But for a lot of subs, you know, she probably, as we said, you know, we're checking all the number of kinks that she might be drawn to. I do think that, like the Botox and the cryo

Raechel: she probably has, like a pretty decent, interesting relationship with pain. She we see her say she doesn't want the numbing cream for the Botox, for example. So I think she probably has. We don't see the pain play with Samuel, but there might be a little, a little something there where she likes, a little bit of an intense feeling in her body in that regard. So yeah.

Alexia: It does seem like the porn she's watching in the beginning. It seems like there's spanking happening.

Raechel: Yeah, you're right. That's true.

Alexia: Maybe it's an interest she might dabble in given more time.

Raechel: Right? Right? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that breakdown. Really smart.

Alexia: Yeah. And I think I think, too, part of the sympathy for me where I'm like, I think if you're not kinky.

Alexia: You might have a hard time understanding this. I think people who are not queer might have a hard time understanding this, like, you know, for example, like queer coming of age is like a huge genre. And I think in general, there's like, I'd like to think that a lot of queer people have a lot of space for allowing people to be really messy as they're coming into their queerness. First love, that sort of thing like it's really difficult.

Alexia: It's like it's like Earth, shattering right, and not in a bad way, you know, like Earth, shattering like something completely new, is like flourishing out of this. But I just don't think it can be stated like how incredibly

Alexia: transformative and like life changing it is to like, really be seen and like, come into your kinkiness, and I feel like a lot of the people who are really harsh on Romy, or like see her as just being like immoral, or like a terrible person, or just as like a cheater like, really don't have an understanding, or like space for understanding like

Alexia: How monumental this is to find someone who sees this kinky side of you who knows what you want? I wouldn't necessarily say I'm not sure if I'd say he has language for it. They're not labeling anything, but he clearly has some understanding, like he knows to call her a good girl, you know.

Raechel: Yeah, totally. Yeah, yes, absolutely. I think so. I read. I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but I think it's connected enough to bring it in here.

Raechel: I read somebody who had read the script, read the screenplay and was sort of bringing sort of a critical feminist lens to it.

Raechel: And I guess the last line of her last. The last shot of the movie is like she smiles into the camera comma liberated, and this person was sort of critiquing like, okay, she's like, back in this normative marriage she's like, is this is, is there? Is there really liberation to be found in this. But I think you're right, like having the ability to like to be a sub like if that is what

Raechel: what you've been drawn to, you know, in all of these ways for so long, like there is like, there is like personal liberation, and that sort of certainly not collective liberation, like there's, you know to bring in Yasmin Nair's. Your sex is not radical like, you know, this isn't changing the world. Romy is literally the boss of a corporation like this is not a revolutionary figure, but for her, and for the value and importance of people.

Raechel: on the sexual margins like, which is what you know so much of queer and kinky Liberal, you know there that there is. There is personal liberation there, and I and I think that that's

Raechel: absolutely important to name and make sense that not everybody is, is understanding the power of that.

Alexia: Yeah.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: I'm wondering if maybe we should talk about Samuel, because obviously we need to talk about Romy with Samuel and kind of get into some of their dynamic.

Raechel: Yeah. Which

Raechel: there's I feel like the Samuel discussions interesting like my first note, for it is just like who the fuck is. This character.

Alexia: Which I feel like. The first time I watched the film, my sort of response, like what was happening live in my body was like, wow! He looks so much younger than I was expecting, like the first, the whole sort of early corporate encounter. He just looks so young like he just looks like such a little boy to me.

Alexia: and kind of like a kind of like an entitled

Alexia: like a bold and kind of bossy little boy.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: I don't know. It made me think of like white boys in the classroom who might be challenging your authority or your power, which is an extremely unsexy dynamic. I mean, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum like I think of this as fantasy. You know. There's probably people who are into that as a play dynamic for me as someone who actually teaches. It's not something I'm into.

Raechel: Right.

Alexia: But yeah, so that initially, I was kind of thrown by that. But then it's like these moments where, as soon as he would kind of like.

Alexia: take on this handler or this like dominant persona, and like his line delivery, it was like he, just transformed as

Alexia: a character like it was magnetic and powerful, and I was like, Oh.

Raechel: Like.

Alexia: They do know. So I felt like I understood it, but

Alexia: I don't know. I think I feel just kind of confused about his character, and some of the like inconsistency in his character.

Alexia: like.

Alexia: You know, he shows so much care and emotional intelligence, and all of their like motel scene, hotel scene. Like all these sorts of intimate sexual scenes.

Alexia: And then it's kind of like these encounters that are happening in the workplace.

Alexia: He's just kind of shitty, and I feel I don't know what to make of it. I feel confused about him.

Raechel: I also feel confused about him, which is why

Raechel: I named that. Maybe that was like a flaw in the storytelling. Maybe if we do have this sort of fairy tale, Arc, because he is so complex and so inconsistent in ways that I think could be real like I believed him as a person.

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: And in my first viewing. So I saw it in the theater once, and then my friend got me access to a screener, so I was able to re-watch it on my computer and pause. And you know, rewind whatever which was great. But

Raechel: And yeah, in my first viewing I was first of all, I've seen Harris. Yeah, Harris Dickinson, and a couple other things, and honestly, he kind of felt unmemorable. I like had to remember. I was like oh, right he was. He was the guy in triangle of sadness, and he was one of the brothers and.

Alexia: He was in triangle of sadness.

Raechel: He's the model. He's like the one young guy, the male model.

Alexia: Yeah, did not remember him from that role at all.

Raechel: Yeah, he's kind of like, yeah, unmemorable. And so. And I also had a similar thing. I was like, he looks like boys from high school like he like the way his mouth is. He is cute like You know, I had a lot of skepticism. But then I was basically like.

Raechel: I guess it took me. I think it took me. I didn't even I didn't like how he was in the meeting. I was very suspicious. And then in their first meeting, when he's kind of whispering and closing the door, he's like, just hold on! Hold on a second hold on a second hold on a second. It just felt so.

Raechel: I have not seen acting like that. It felt like such a cliche thing to say it felt really real. But there was just this, like weird, whispery, kind of repetition of the ways that he said things as he's like moving his body that I was just like, oh, I'm like, I believe, this person I like really believe this person. And I can tell that he's like.

Raechel: Yeah, it. It just suddenly started to work for me at that point. So.

Raechel: But I totally agree he's inconsistent with the scene in the car when he starts yelling. I was like, well, now, I hate this guy, how am I gonna be here for the rest of the movie? Because fuck this? But then I was also like, Okay, that's believable, though he's like, or something ridiculous. I think he was supposed to be something like that. Young I would have preferred, for a variety of reasons, my own.

Raechel: you know, viewing pleasure if he was something closer to. But I think he read, I read. He was supposed to be like literally right out of college.

Raechel: So he, anyway. So there's a

Raechel: There's that. There are these moments when I was

Raechel: really unhappy with like being rooting for this guy or just being invested in his pleasure alongside her pleasure. And then there were the moments of him with Jacob, where I was like. He is

Raechel: such a. He's a profound healer like he's helping, are we? Here?

Raechel: He's helping Jacob heal. And then the real reason, the biggest reason, I think that I and this is this is my own, like

Raechel: whatever sort of basic identity politics is like a working-class person, raised person, poor raised person, working class person. He is very working class coded, and there are these. He's like he has his chain, which, like I just love a chain. I'll take a chain on a mask person any day. We hear that his dad used to be a fighter, which is just such like a, you know,

Raechel: such a working-class background storyline. I guess.

Raechel: he! His suit doesn't fit well, and he has to have a second job. He works part-time at the bar, and there. And so for me, that like boldness and entitlement, even though

Raechel: fuck patriarchy from the poor guys to the rich guys like absolutely bullshit male entitlement is annoying and obnoxious, and or violent and harmful and egregious like across the board. But there is something more palatable to me about like

Raechel: a working-class guy who has to work a second job outside of the corporate job

Raechel: talking back to the boss. That I'm just more open to.

Alexia: I'm ready.

Raechel: So yeah, that was a little bit scattered. But like agreed, he's inconsistent. Is that really good writing? Or is that bad writing? And I was definitely on a little bit of a journey with how much I was like

Raechel: into him, you know, sort of.

Alexia: In front.

Raechel: From an audience. Pleasure perspective. But ultimately it

Raechel: by the end, you know. After the dance, after the milk scene, after the dance scene after the Jacob scene. And then that final scene with the dog. I was like, okay, I get it.

Alexia: Again.

Raechel: Okay.

Alexia: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, it's such a journey. I'm glad you brought up the class component. It feels funny to see this in a movie about white people. But I think this is where like intersectionality is so needed for this film and I’m not seeing a lot of it

Alexia: because it's like, if we're just looking at it through a lens of gender. It's like.

Alexia: You know, and a lot of people are doing this. It's really gross. Oh, this man can't handle this woman being in a position of power, and he has to put her in her place, and he's talking down to her right. But then, if we bring class into it like you're saying, it's like, well, actually, isn't there something really nice about like an intern, refusing to be like, ignored and like denigrated by this rich CEO, you know, who doesn't have time for him.

Raechel: So it's like it's all muddled up and confusing about like.

Alexia: You know. Is this like? Is he kind of misogynistic? Is he like

Alexia: Is he messing with the power dynamics around, like their class positions and ignoring corporate hierarchy. Is it all just about from the very beginning? He knows she's a sub, and he's just like feeding her crumbs like. I just don't. I just don't know. I just don't know what to do with it.

Raechel: Yeah.

Raechel: yeah, this is, I didn't. I just don't have a misogyny read on it; I think after that. And I think after he questions her the very first day in the office.

Raechel: He was just being kind of a bold

Raechel: boy who was like, Yeah, maybe there's some class

Raechel: resistance, maybe, but otherwise he was just being like a

Raechel: I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna talk kind of guy, which is like, you know, has problems. But I think he saw her reaction to that, and I think he started almost instantly to realize that, like she, there was something about her that like

Raechel: liked that, even though it got immediately shut down, and they got, you know, moved out of the room, out of the office. So that's my! That's my hunch of like when he.

Alexia: I mean.

Raechel: first realized. But yeah, he's but I enjoyed thinking about him like, because he was hard to read and hard to understand. I felt compelled.

Alexia: Yeah, and I think for me, this is also part of where fantasy comes in you know, because, like.

Alexia: I think there's multiple things happening here where it's like.

Alexia: You know what a classic fantasy to have like the boss. And like the employee. And I know there's people who are like that's not consensual. The power dynamics of that are weird. And it's like, but it's literally like BD/SM role play. And like they're, you know, like they're giving us literal BD/SM fantasies.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: As well like. And

Alexia: there were times where it also did kind of feel like sort of a mommy, with like the like teen boy who's acting out dynamic

Alexia: going on between them, which I'm not as much of a fan of, either. I don't know where I was going with this. I don't know if you want to

Alexia: do it, and.

Raechel: Well, I think that's a really interesting point, because it's also. And this is where I'm like, okay, these are less archetypes and more like real people, because we see

Raechel: absolutely. Romy has this nurturing. You know, mommy side, that we definitely see in the car. She literally has to like to talk him down from his little tantrum, which again I hated. I hated that because I hated him yelling, and I just like it was that was

Raechel: So frustrating. But we do see that he also needs it.

Raechel: He's also an adult. He's an adult man who also has his little boy things. And so there's like there is a little bit of switchiness, even though it's.

Raechel: And but if we're putting it in the kink context, like

Raechel: he also needed, you know, to be sort of calmed and talk to you, and whether it's kinky or not, like

Raechel: just doing, you know, relationship couples, therapy, whatever like a lot of times. There are dynamics that you need your partner to sort of caretake you in ways like, and whether that's healthy or unhealthy like. Often that's like what we're looking for is like

Raechel: Some of some of that sort of caretaking that maybe we didn't get as kid/s or whatever so there's there, I guess there's that comment. And then the second moment that's like so clear is when they're having. I saw a critique that they like to barely talk to each other. And it's like, Yeah, they do. They barely talk to each other. I have personally had affairs, you know. I mean affairs broadly defined, like, you know, love affairs, you know, whatever sexual sort of

Raechel: things. Where I don't know the person that well.

Alexia: Yeah.

Raechel: Where it's like, yeah, like it. This relationship is really less about getting to know each other. And it's much more about something else, and so I was fine with that that they didn't have like deep heart to hearts. But the one moment where we see them

Raechel: really having a conversation in bed.

Raechel: He's kind of below her, and he's he gets he's really sought like soft and tender in that moment, and at the end he says, can you hold me? And we see her, you know, stroke his head very, you know. So there is a little aftercare. If we're bringing it back to that to some kink language like he gives her aftercare. We see that but I feel like that was an aftercare moment.

Raechel: A little bit too like not directly after a scene, but like

Raechel: they had been in their dynamic. And he just needed to be held, you know, and so I don't know. I liked it. I loved that scene.

Alexia: Yeah, let's get into the juicy scenes. So I feel like for me, like the main ones to really touch on between them. It's like the motel scene.

Alexia: The hotel scene and then the Rave so, yeah, a motel scene.

Raechel: Oh, my God!

Alexia: I know, I'm just smiling. I'm like people on the podcast. Don't know. But we're just.

Raechel: We're just grinning.

Raechel: I okay, I'll try to keep it short because I don't wanna hog, hog all the all the points. But like

Raechel: I loved it, I thought I'd read a number of people.

Raechel: talk about the being put into a corner against the wall, and like some people who clearly are not kinksters were like that was hilarious, and it's like it was funny, but it was funny, because it was hot, and they're trying to figure it out. I'm like that was hot.

Raechel: Also. It was funny because they're still like working it out. But I love I loved that

Raechel: I'll spare some of the other details to just say, like my absolute favorite part, which for me, I mean definitely some pet play, but also just like General. I truly think she found her subspace so profoundly in this moment when he unwraps a strawberry hard candy, makes her eat it out of his palm. She's on all fours, and then he makes her spit it out, and she's like

Raechel: she. It's not exactly Bratty. It's more like I'm a

Raechel: wounded little animal who just got a treat. And now I already have to spit my treat out and like I'm just like she just starts to whimper and like never. It's so. It was so I just like, oh, I just loved it. And then she's like rubbing her nose against his knee.

Raechel: and I, just fucking, loved that scene so much.

Raechel: I just

Raechel: it was such an excellent, short little blip of what it feels like to just be in those spaces. So there's a lot that happened. There's a lot of other things that happen in that scene, and I'll pass it to you too.

Alexia: Yeah, I mean, I am. We can indulge like I am down.

Raechel: To like.

Alexia: Here. It's so good like to me. The motel scenes start to finish like out of , flawless, filmmaking like absolutely perfect, you know, like to the point where we, you know, we're talking about some things that are messy or confusing about the film. Ultimately, all of it just kind of. Doesn't that matter that much to me because of how good these scenes are, you know, like, it's.

Alexia: It's just so good.

Alexia: And yeah, like that moment in the corner, like again, I feel like she's in little space, because he's like, Take off your clothes. And she's like, no, yeah, you know, and he asked, why, she's like, I don't know. I just don't want to, and it's just like, you know, she's already kind of there.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Oh, my God! But yeah, the whimper is so good!

Alexia: The way that, like the wrestling that happened.

Raechel: That's it.

Alexia: Like the way, too, that it's like he wrestles her. And like I'm also thinking of the way that he has to like.

Alexia: help her submit to the full extent of her pleasure. Yeah, so the scene, you know where he starts, actually, like, you know, fingering her. And clearly, she's about to have a really intense orgasm. She's probably about to squirt for her first time ever.

Raechel: That's definitely what I think. The pee reference was for sure.

Alexia: Yeah, so.

Raechel: Yeah. She's.

Alexia: Probably never done it before. And that's like happening. And like she wanted to like, get up and go right like it's too intense. It was kind of scary, overwhelming, and he helps her submit to like.

Alexia: like, actually experience that fully. And it's so beautiful and

Alexia: the other, like the first aftercare scene we get right like she just like breaks down, and he

Alexia: hold/s her and.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Oh, it's just so good! It's so beautiful!

Raechel: So beautiful. Then there's that short moment where they're kind of like leaving the scene. But we just get this quick moment where he puts the hood over her, her, too, which I also loved, his little Hoodie on her. That was also really.

Alexia: I see. Yeah, very relatable. And I'm like, you know, aftercare tip like, yes, have a warm, cozy hoodie.

Raechel: A hoodie.

Alexia: Or something to snuggle up with afterward/s.

Raechel: Yes, for sure. Oh, yeah, I loved it. I loved it.

Alexia: Such good caretaking!

Alexia: Yeah. And I think, too, like.

Alexia: I think the most frustrating kind of read I see on this film is people being like, oh, a man dominating a woman. How unoriginal

Alexia: and like part of me is like, Yeah, I get that. If I walked into a dungeon or something, and it's all men doming women I'd be like, Ew, this is not my scene I'm going to leave, yeah, you know.

Alexia: But also, I think that the people who are saying that shit don't understand that, like the Dom, submissive relationship is not actually about patriarchal domination. It's about care, like deep care and trust and reciprocity, and like, I think, that's just totally lost on a lot of people who are watching this play out. And like, I just love seeing the way that Samuel acts with so much care, you know, throughout all of their play scenes.

Raechel: Completely and just sorry to, because I've literally been teaching and writing about it for years now. So sorry to bring in the feminist sex wars again, but like it's the age-old misunderstanding, I mean, really, people like Andrea Dworkin built their whole like platform on this idea that all kink including, and they really went after the Lesbians man like, especially if there was like a butch fem dynamic. And there was, and they were kinksters like

Raechel: Dworkin, loathed those people because it was reproducing patriarchy whatever and just like how they completely conflated

Raechel: everything from rough sex to the most extreme. You know, BD/SM, that you can think of it as just like, this is violence. This is violence against women. This is violence against violence, against women, and it is just like it was so hard for me to even teach that, because it's like

Raechel: It's so nonsensical to me like it's so truly, not about that because it is so much about care and about trust, and all the things you just named. So.

Raechel: Yeah. Age, old age, old debate, just one that I just feel like is difficult to debate, because it's like we're talking about totally different things. Here we're talking about violence against women, and we are talking about one of the most tender

Raechel: sexual experiences you could possibly have. I don't know. I don't know how to talk about it like I don't know how to debate that.

Raechel: So, yeah.

Alexia: Gotcha.

Raechel: Thing.

Alexia: Also like where Samuel's so fucking, confusing to me, because it's like I feel like in all of their placings. He's an intuitive, caring handler and dominant like. I don't think in any of the placings he does anything that's a red flag or concerning. And then, outside of that, he does so many problematic things, you know, like you mentioned him yelling in the car. But he's straight up, like, I don't want to be angry. Why are you making me angry?

Alexia: Yeah, like, user language.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: So I don't know. I just. I feel so confused at how diff like.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: How different, but I don't know. At least, at least they're giving us these beautiful play scenes that don't have this confusion like I feel very clear that it's good and beautiful and consensual. And like.

Alexia: Yeah, well, for me, thing.

Raechel: Totally. But maybe that's also part of the

Raechel: The good work that rain does also shows in the mid/st of this fairy tale also showing these like human complexities, because I actually think D/s brings out the best in people. I mean, I've absolutely had situations where

Raechel: the dynamic in sex is good. But it's also like a real relationship where people are shitty to each other like that's also like. So I think that's also

Raechel: realistic, like, it's hard.

Alexia: Yeah.

Raechel: Realm of a movie, because we only get, you know, h with these people to decide how we feel about them. But like, I think that's also like.

Raechel: probably you know, pretty realistic like

Alexia: M.

Raechel: And that's also hard for me with like.

Raechel: Yeah, I don't know. That's it's just it's hard. It's hard to try to combat

Raechel: cultures of patriarchal harm that exist. So I mean.

Raechel: Yeah, that is clearly a very real thing. But then to also defend

Raechel: this space like that I don't know. People can be. People can hold both. But yeah, that was a super fucked up thing he did in the car absolutely abuser language, like without question.

Alexia: Yeah, I feel like what you said is such a good point, though, that like, yeah, that's kind of the point of like BD/SM, and kink is like you're creating this container in which you can do all these things that are very unsafe, emotionally and physically, because you know that there is safety and a set of agreements, and how people are showing up and caring for each other. Yeah. And outside of that space we don't have those containers.

Raechel: Yes.

Alexia: So I think that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I definitely don't think that everyone who practices BD/SM and follows the guidelines of consent and care do that in all aspects of life, right? But that's part of what makes it so special. It's like there's a space in which we're saying, we are going to do this.

Raechel: Totally. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Alexia: What about the hotel? Scene?

Raechel: Oh, it was so fun! This is also like apologies. I mean, I talked to.

Raechel: I'm bi Yeah. So I'm bisexual. So sometimes I'm like, do I like, yeah, lust after men too much? Cis men to, you know, and not have that translate to the Queers. But I've talked to a lot of queer people, queer, kinky people in particular, who like.

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: Seemed like they were desirous of. And you know, I think all hot Cis men are basically just like you know, the best of them are kind of imitating butch and trans masc like vibes, anyway. So that's all you know. It's all what is gender, etc. But I felt tons of desire for Samuel in the hotel scene. The father figure needle drop at that moment.

Raechel: Yeah, with his dancing. I was just like I was

Raechel: totally here for it. So I loved, loved, loved the dancing. I loved it. I just thought it was a great montage. I think we see this, and this is maybe I can bring in my like sort of

Raechel: stretch theorizing. This was definitely an academic moment of mine to be like. Let me apply a totally unrelated framework to this. But my, when I was writing about it. I brought in Kathy Weeks's like anti-work theorizing, but we do see this dreamy hotel moment that is so removed from the drudgery of everyday life. It is just this, like

Raechel: totally escape Bubble, where they're dancing. He picks her up and spins her around. They're kind of sitting there like when they're when we see the sauce or her drinking milk from the saucer scene. What I almost liked even more about it is like right before she gets on all fours. They're just like sitting in their bath. Well, I think he's just in pants, and she's in her bathrobe, and they're just like sitting in these chairs like it looks like they've just been like fucking and hanging out for like.

Alexia: Hmm.

Raechel: Hours, and they're just like, Hang, they're just hanging out. And then he's like.

Raechel: Oh, there's like a saucer by my feet, and he just sort of pushes it out as in like we're sitting here like, why don't you get back on your knees like? But it's just so leisurely, which is the opposite of our culture. Like we're not supposed to have leisure. And you know, sex, you know, has always been a threat to bourgeois norms like, there's a lot of great writing about like queer people, and

Raechel: like any sort of sexual deviance which they projected onto immigrants, working class people of color, of course, like obviously always have this sort of hypersexualized

Raechel: projection and partly because of how sex threatened capitalist productivity. I'm trying to think of the person who I love who writes about that best, but I can't, so I'll send things for the show notes. But so I just so. I loved that

Raechel: escape from reality that we had, that we had with that scene?

Raechel: Many more things. But what about you? What else?

Alexia: Bringing up the milk scene when he licks it off of her after that is.

Alexia: That's good, but it's good.

Raechel: A plus.

Alexia: Yeah. So some of my, I think some of the sexiest parts of the film for me are like in that montage. So him licking. I'm Looking at my notes under hotel scene. I have. Dancing scene is beautiful finger and mouth scene so hot milk. Scene. He licks it off of her hot.

Raechel: Yes, exactly.

Alexia: It's just so good.

Raechel: Yes, yes, yeah. I wonder if finger and mouth like to me. I'm like, oh, surely, even if you don't have never had the luxury. You know the pleasure of a finger in a mouth like you've seen the memes, right? And I'm like, oh, wait! Not everybody's Internet has finger and mouth, meme, so I don't know if people know how good that is, but that's really good.

Alexia: So hot. I'm just like people who don't find this sexy. I'm so confused by because, like that, that was perfectly crafted for me. I'm into it.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Also very beautiful, like

Alexia: the way that he gets her. She like sits and spread/s her legs, and then she's just standing exposed and like.

Raechel: Oh!

Alexia: Again. She's like in little space. She's fussy about it. She says she's scared. I love that part where she goes. I'm scared. He's like, okay, but you're still gonna do it right? Yeah.

Raechel: That's another moment where I'm like, what's that?

Raechel: Dickinson's acting at that moment? Because he's like. But you're so. Gonna and he's kind of like leaning

Raechel: like embodied. There's almost something.

Raechel: I personally think

Raechel: I love Adam Driver, and I think he's kind of a master at this. But there's something almost Adam Driver-ish about his like. It's kind of unexpected, unpredictable. And there's like body movement that goes along with his very natural seeming delivery. I don't know how we've I don't know. I've never heard you talk about girls huge, full of problems, but I love the character of Adam. I think Adam Driver does that beautifully. So there's something like, yeah embodied in his like.

Alexia: Oh, you're done.

Raechel: To do it, anyway, and he gets kind of sing songy when he moves his body. I loved that for sure.

Alexia: Yeah, he just embodies such a good word that he just embodies that handler dominant energy so well.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah.

Alexia: I'm with you even though I spent the first part of the film like, Oh, gosh! Why did they cast this boy like. Oh, he's not cute! And then he those moments I'm just like, Oh, I'm here

Alexia: for it!

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: And then the club scene.

Alexia: So I feel like I wanna like music. So fucking good like we if we haven't shouted it out enough, yet, like the soundtrack, is just unbelievably incredible.

Raechel: So good, so good.

Raechel: Good.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah. I think the filming of that scene is I kept trying to figure out how

Raechel: they managed to get us to focus on Romi and Samuel in this giant crowd. They didn't do cheesy, blurring, blurring. It wasn't like it was like a blur effect like, but somehow

Raechel: We were. The audience was completely focused, directed on these characters. Even in this gigantic scene of or this scene of this gigantic rave club with tons of people. So I just thought that was skillful. I don't know how she did that, but that was very skillful. And then another example of a space that is sort of unproductive, out of sort of our  to , you know, capitals, productivity.

Raechel: that I really

Raechel: adored. And also, yeah, well, I'll pass. I'll pass the mic so much to see what else? What else?

Alexia: And it's and it's queer, right? It's super fucking queer like we immediately see like there's like queer and trans people there like right a young woman or young femme comes up and kisses Romy, and Romy kisses her back. You know Samuel is kind of like wrestling, and like touching on another man like, Yeah, there's something really good about that.

Raechel: I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. And it gives Samuel more complexity, too, and makes me trust him more because if he's like part of these spaces where that fluidity like, I trust him more when he's later. Sort of like lecturing

Raechel: Jacob, about what contemporary sexuality is about. I'm like, yeah, you probably know, he's like in community with queer people. So that was a good thing. Yeah, just a quick shout out, because we might not get to her at any point. I just loved that. There was like a queer daughter, or potentially even, yeah, I think, daughter, I think.

Alexia: Maybe.

Raechel: I just liked that, too, just like, you know. Again, representation is not everything, especially when it's like rich, rich white people. But well, she's a daughter of a

Raechel: another quick, tangent side note.

Alexia: My.

Raechel: Partner who lived in Spain for years

Raechel: is very insistent that people from Spain.

Raechel: who are not racialized be considered white, because, like there's so much whiteness problems in Spain because of how harmed

Raechel: immigrants and marginalized people in Spain are. So. There was a debate on, and if Antonio but Antonio Banderas has an accent and is red. I think Red is a racialized person in the Us. So.

Raechel: Would you say, yeah. So I think, like the kid/s, you know, I don't know.

Raechel: Are the kid/s white? That's a question mark. But

Raechel: they are rich and the daughter of a white woman. So anyway, that's just like

Raechel: quick side. But we can. We'll actually get into race stuff more later. But I do. I do like that. There was a queer daughter. So back to the club. I just rambled. What else about the club?

Alexia: Well, actually, actually, like, yeah, I do want to talk about the daughter, because the clubs also, it's making me think we haven't touched on this yet. But

Alexia: There's like something here about age in the storyline, too, where like.

Alexia: So I kind of noticed it twice. But in the club, like clearly, Romy is there, and everyone else looks like they're probably in their early twenties. Right? Yeah. And it's also the space that we see. That's like, really queer. And there's like all this fluidity. And then you mentioned the daughter we have the figure of, like the daughter who is queer, who is kind of gender nonconforming. She recognizes fluidity like non-monogamy. And like, Yeah, I love my girlfriend. I can still have fun with this neighbor, you know.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: And then something I noticed in the second viewing was like, we get this early on scene of Romy standing in the elevator, and it's all old white men around her.

Raechel: And then.

Alexia: Once she's linked up with Samuel. We get a scene of her, and Samuel in the elevator, as may like, reaches out her arm and stops the doors and then lets in a flood of young workers who are

Alexia: like a lot more diverse. They're not all white, right? It's like people of different races. So I feel like there's something here, too, maybe about like

Alexia: like Romy kind of as this figure of being part of this like

Alexia: generation that was very closed off, and getting these, like Samuel, as like her entry, point to like Gen. Z. And like newer generations, and their like understandings of fluidity and queerness and like sexuality. Yeah, I feel like there's something there about this like intergenerational, like lessons happening.

Raechel: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was a really yeah, smart theme. Well done. Theme throughout.

Raechel: and also just to keep. We don't know, you know you can. We can read a movie without knowing anything about the behind the scenes. But just because I do a lot of reading about people.

Raechel: So Helena Raine also did bodies, bodies, bodies, and talked about which I loved. I thought it was super fun. Fun. Romp! Very different. Well, I liked it. I will say I really liked that movie. I like, I loved baby girl. I liked bodies, bodies, but she talks about learning so much from the zoomers that she was working with on set on that movie. So I feel like that is also translating into this into this like her.

Raechel: She said, like I thought I was a sexually liberated feminist, and then I met the Zoomers, and, like, you know, had so many things open up for me, and she also talks about how like Gen. Z supposedly doesn't want to see sex on screen. And she's like, I actually agree with that. And she's

Raechel: insists that there's only like sex scenes in this in baby Girl, which is like, Okay, I kind of get what you're saying. But you're also like turning this into like

Raechel: P and V, like normative, like understanding of sex. Because the whole movie, you know, felt like sex to me. But anyway. So I'm going too many places. But I yeah, I think the generation I think that's a that

Raechel: I had not thought about the symbolism of that scene with Esme in the elevator. But I think it's like a perfect way to pick out how that's shown.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Should we talk about Esme? like I feel like we need to. But I'm like we're kind of there already. We're jumping.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: But whatever that's.

Raechel: Yeah. Sorry. Listeners.

Alexia: With.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah, on a journey.

Raechel: Yeah. I mean.

Raechel: There are a lot of if the film has reason to be called out for anything. I think it's for sort of the treatment of Esme

Raechel: And also, is that realistic? So I have a lot of thoughts. Do you? Wanna do you wanna start us off.

Alexia: Yeah, I mean, I think I should have mentioned the very beginning, like, because I was expressing a lot of sympathy for Romy, because I was really excited to talk about the Kink dynamics, you know, but have to name like how unbelievably shitty that scene is where, immediately after Esme sees her with Samuel. She like calls her into her office. Esme thinks it's going to be a discussion about her promotion, and actually she's just chiding her for like

Alexia: dating the intern that it's like she's in a position of power. It's just. It's so hypocritical and manipulative and spiteful, and just feels like

Alexia: just like total, like white woman CEO bullshit like. It's really nasty completely

Alexia: so. I feel like I should have said that like in the very beginning, about her character where I have a lot of sympathy for her, but that was very jarring. Yeah.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Colt.

Alexia: I mean, Esme, like, you know, there's definitely something there around like

Alexia: I think some of the failures of like white feminism, and the way that, like she's clearly exploited by Romy, like she's doing, she does so much beyond her job like she's putting makeup on her. She's like taking care of her kid/s like there's deep emotional labor going into her role. And you know, Romy likes bragging about her like she's the best. She's amazing, but like

Alexia: isn't like being proactive about making sure she's paid fairly.

Raechel: Totally.

Alexia: But the thing I'm most interested in, like really curious about. I felt so confused by the sort of whistleblower scene that happened at the end, where, like the first time I watched it, I was straight up, just confused. I was like what is happening.

Alexia: because, you know. She says that, like, you know, she knows what's going on, and she wants it to stop.

Alexia: But she's not trying to blackmail her into getting anything more than she deserves. And again this generational thing comes up because she's like they might have done it that way in your generation. But that's not what I'm interested in.

Raechel: Right.

Alexia: But her whole speech is how she wants her to be like a role model, and how she's going to use her position to do good for women, and how she wants to be able to look up to her.

Alexia: I just feel so confused. I'm like, is this like needed accountability?

Alexia: Is this weird morality policing? And then I think, what I ultimately kind of landed on is just like.

Alexia: why does this young black woman need a white woman, CEO, to look up to like it? Just it felt extremely unbelievable and just really confusing, like. I don't know how you interpreted that scene.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: But.

Raechel: Yeah. Well, to emphasize again, like, it is really

Raechel: annoying, unacceptable, problematic that once again, like, you know, a big, a big, buzzy movie that. Of course, you know, the lead/s are going to be white, and then the casting director does their due diligence to cast people of color.

Raechel: but like not in the lead roles. And you know a lot of black critics talk about the black throwaway girlfriend, and there is a way in which Esme is just like, oh, look! We did a good job. The movie is not only white people look at this, you know, actually kind of like plot point, pivotal role. We're gonna cast a black woman. But she's still like, sort of like, sexually othered because she's like, it's like the less intense relationship that Samuel has. So

Raechel: All of these things deserve criticism and like, why, once again, do you know do the leads get to be white, and you know the side characters are, you know, people of color? So that is absolutely important to name. That said,

Raechel: I think there is also room to illustrate the sort of messiness of

Raechel: Gen. Z. Trying to figure out sort of this like post identity, like

Raechel: what to do with identity politics. And I, and the sort of lingerings of girl bossery. Basically. What I'm saying is like

Raechel: everybody like people of color, deserve the humanity to be sort of understood that there are also

Raechel: women of color who will ignore, like, who will try to play the corporate game. You know we have. We have to pull your pants up, you know, whatever

Raechel: Obama telling black men to pull their pants up. Sort of thing like there's always going to be people who are not going to have radical race politics, who are just gonna try to do.

Alexia: A month.

Raechel: Corporate game. So the idea, I think, as May knew, she wasn't gonna like Get Romy's job. I think she probably knew she couldn't jump from getting

Raechel: being where she was to like getting Romy canceled and getting Romy's job. I think there are probably young women who still have some girl boss remnants who are like this. It matters to have like women leading women, and she maybe thought

Raechel: her best path to climbing the corporate ladder was through her relationship with Romy. So we can re, I think I think it is ambiguous if she

Raechel: actually believes in like this version of

Raechel: corporate feminism empowerment, and that like she wants to keep. She wants to like, do morality like? Let me get Romy back in her place. Keep her in power, and then and then she can like, do her do the better stuff like, maybe? Or is it more manipulative like? Now I have something that I can hold over you. So you are going to help me climb this company as long as you need me to, you know. Like as long as I need you to

Raechel: in either way, like it does give Esme a lot of agency. And I think Esme's character is

Raechel: also extremely sympathetic because she's clearly exploited and even in this very, you know, racialized way, like doing her makeup like very sort of, you know.

Raechel: you know, going back on, you know, black Mammy stereotypes like there's this character like you, said the kid/s, the makeup

Raechel: and also, she is showing like power and agency in that moment, and is a complex character. She's also. Her clothes were also

Raechel: fucking, adorable like her clothes were awesome, like super cute dresses that were also like corporate. Somehow, just like really excellent fashion. So she is like a well-rounded character. It sucks, you know, that

Raechel: black people can't have lead roles more often in movies like this. But yeah, I just kind of well, did anything land did anything? What do you think about some of that?

Alexia: Yeah, I think that's helpful. I think I just feel so divested from corporate feminism that that's why I was just kind of like what.

Raechel: Yeah, but there are people who like it.

Alexia: Yeah, yeah.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Yeah. And I mean.

Alexia: I mean, I feel like, I guess we have to talk about it. And like, I don't know how much interesting stuff there really is to say about it, like.

Alexia: I think there's the. It's very obvious, you know, the choice of automation. There's something here about like

Alexia: just going along with society's norms being on cruise control like being closed off to your inner primal desires. Like, with all of that I understand the decision to like. Have her with

Alexia: like to foreground her company, you know.

Alexia: I also feel like, you know, the decision to have Romy be like the CEO is probably because I think the film is trying. I think it is doing a lot with like complicating

Alexia: power dynamics. You know where it's like she's the boss, but she's also a woman, but she's also white.

Raechel: But she said.

Alexia: Missive, like all of that is happening.

Alexia: But I don't know. I think I'm just kind of left with like.

Alexia: I don't know how interesting this is to say. But I think with so many films, it's just like, do we have to just focus on like rich people and upload like, do we just.

Raechel: Totally.

Alexia: You know, like I think, and I think, like, you know, the only thing that kind of saves that for me again is like, if we're like. Oh, well, it's fantasy, it's luxury. It's the nice clothes, like all of that. But I like it.

Alexia: I don't know. I feel like if this film was leaning more into sort of the drama character development side of it, like having someone like work in a fact like work in an automated factory, or just like adding some of that like working class element to the story, would just be so much more interesting.

Raechel: Yeah.

Raechel: Yeah, it would be, it absolutely would be more interesting. I don't. I think you're totally right, though, about like, could it do this work of like fairy tale stuff, and I don't know which is sad, you know, which is a Testament to the gross

Raechel: remnants of what capitalism you know, sort of trains our brains into accepting as fantasy, or whatever I think it'd be fascinating. I would really like to, yeah, I want to.

Raechel: I feel like I would love to write a script for Helena. Rain to like work with. That was much more class aware, because bodies, bodies also is like about rich people. There's like one character. I guess the main character is like, maybe not as rich. But it's just like.

Raechel: Okay, more, you know. So just and yeah, and even. And I love white lotus. But it's like, Oh, my, gosh, we just. And there's just so. Yeah, there's so much rich people storytelling. And this one is interesting, too, because it isn't unlike one white lotus. It's not supposed to really be like the easy, like rich people behaving badly. Aren't they so awful like she actually does this work where she's making us sympathetic to them?

Alexia: Rich people.

Raechel: So. Yeah, I agree. I just, we need I don't want this movie to not exist. I mean, this is like the most boring response. And this is also not a radical response. Because this is like, you know, it's still Hollywood, like, I don't want this movie not to be made. I just want more stories of, you know, with.

Alexia: It's working.

Raechel: People also like, yeah, I don't know. So

Raechel: yeah. And the robot thing, yeah, what? Exactly. I'm just gonna echo what you said. It's yeah. It's very obvious, like, that's the robot part of it. The automation part of it with what's going on there without that symbolism.

Alexia: And then, like the ending, too. Like I'm, I think what I'm trying to figure out is like.

Alexia: How much is this? How much is she actually invested in this corporate feminism

Alexia: like, is, is it just straight up like investment, or like what is happening? Because, like where we go with Romy’s like character. Arc right? It's like

Alexia: she ends up learning through the journey of like Esme, and, like the general consensus that, like vulnerability, is a good thing. Vulnerability is a strength. And like we get Esme at the end, you know, giving this speech around the new direction of their company, and how it's like radical self honesty, and like.

Raechel: We're.

Alexia: And compassion, and like, you know, it's obviously meant to mirror, like Romy's journey of coming into that.

Raechel: Hmm.

Alexia: And I'm just like, what the fuck are they trying? Are they like just what is happening like, why is a corporation the mouthpiece for radical vulnerability. And are they being serious? Like, I just.

Raechel: That's a good question. Yeah, if they're trying to be earnest about that like parallel.

Raechel: That's very unsatisfying, and I don't like it.

Alexia: Yeah.

Raechel: But I don't know. I don't know. I don't. That's a that's a question mark for me, because I yeah, the

Raechel: the potential liberation of sexual discovery feels powerful also, not radical or revolutionary, but powerful, but the

Raechel: like self discovery of a corporation feels, I mean, I'm not at all interested in that at all. Yeah, it's it is hard to say, because then there's also the scene

Raechel: that also feels like annoyingly, annoyingly, girl bossy, but also like

Raechel: important that basically, Romy gets propositioned by an older man at the company. And she's like fuck off. Basically kind of regardless of. She implies that she doesn't give a shit. What happens to her, you know, as long as she like turns this guy down

Raechel: part of me as a person who doesn't have one.

Raechel: You know, a tiny little percentage of the amount of money that that woman has is like, well, yeah, that makes sense. Because she could like lose that job, and she still has  houses. She'll be fine, like maybe she actually means it. But there's another part of me that's like, I think we're supposed to think that she doesn't actually want to lose her job. She just wants to sell this guy to fuck off, and she's gonna get to have it all, and I that that moment felt like

Raechel: unsatisfying to me.

Alexia: Yeah, and unnecessary, because I'm like, Are we meant to believe she wouldn't have responded that way in the beginning of the film.

Raechel: Right, right.

Alexia: Because I didn't get that from her character that she didn't know how to

Alexia: stand up for herself, because, at least in her initial interactions with Samuel. She was like, very

Alexia: clear on her position, and like her authority, and all of those things.

Raechel: Totally. Yeah.

Raechel: He obviously kept pushing on the boundary, and she relented because she wanted to, you know. But yeah, yeah, that last scene. I don't. Yeah, I just don't know the ending of the movie just.

Alexia: Like. I love the actual like final ending. You know the last shot with Samuel and the dog, and all of that, but the little corporate Montage at the end

Alexia: didn't need it. Didn't really care for it.

Alexia: Yeah, I understand it.

Raechel: I agree. I think that was probably the weakest part of the movie for me. There were things that were more upsetting, like, yeah, the car scene. Esme's general, like the problems with the Esme character that we named. But that was like.

Raechel: Yeah, weakest, weakest writing, weakest part in general. I agree.

Raechel: Yeah, there would have been other ways.

Raechel: because they needed us to know. They needed to tell us what happened to Samuel. And that's what we learned in the dialogue in that scene. But it's like

Raechel: I didn't. I didn't need that other part.

Alexia: Yeah.

Alexia: Okay, I'm so sorry I keep jumping around. Okay. But you know what we're jumping around. But we're hitting all the things I want to talk about. You know the orders, just whatever we're talking about the ending, and we touched on it. But we haven't really dug into

Alexia: kind of like the resolution of the affair. Like we focused on Romy and Samuel. But I'm interested in like Romy and Jacob, like the scene of her, confessing the affair to him, his reaction, and then also, of course, the vacation home, like his encounter with

Alexia: Samuel.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah.

Raechel: So I

Raechel: and Tony Banderas was so sweet in the scene where he find/s I mean, so , just like tender. And you know I

Raechel: appreciate the critiques of monogamy where it's like, Oh, big deal cheating.

Raechel: But you can still cheat in non-monogamous relations. I mean that language. The language is flawed. But, like

Raechel: I have been the person who is, you know, quote unquote, cheated, and I have also been the person quote unquote, cheated on, even if yeah, again, flawed language. But like it really does suck like losing having that trust destroyed

Raechel: fucking sucks. And I felt sympathy for him. And I don't. I don't care if it's a normative, heteronormative marriage like that was sad, and I think he does a really good job showing that. And I think we need to like as much pleasure and joy. And I'm you know.

Raechel: on behalf of Romy. I don't regret her having the affair. I think it was worth it. It seems worth it. But like it had, it had repercussions, and it sucked, and I and I'm glad that we got some of that like emotional fallout. Now that said when he turns into like a you know, stereotypical macho man who wants to beat up Samuel. That was

Raechel: frustrating. But I thought that scene was

Raechel: one of the best scenes in the movie, and the sort of Kerfuffle that follows.

Raechel: And yeah, I want you to jump in with a lot more details. But I'll just like I just have to say, like pressing when Jacob and Samuel are pressing head/s, and Samuel becomes this like healer for Jacob and gets to have his little side comment about how it's like a dated understanding of sexuality. When Jacob says that

Raechel: First he gives the power analysis of like this is your boss. She's abusing you, and also female masochism is just a patriarchal fantasy. He says the  normative mainstream understandings of power. And they're and Samuel's like, I'm sorry those are wrong. That's wrong. That's incorrect.

Raechel: So I love it. I loved that. I yeah, what did? What did you think?

Alexia: Yeah, and that's another one of those like intergenerational lesson moments in the film right.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Yeah, I

Alexia: I definitely fall in the camp. I'm guilty of being one of those polyamorous people who is just like, Wow, he's really upset. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that. So I'm glad that you can bring a more grounded perspective, because I definitely was one of those people who was just like, Oh, God! That feels annoying to deal with.

Alexia: But yeah, lying's not fun.

Alexia: Yeah. I love the scene between him and Jacob. It made me think like, obviously, this is like fighting like they're fighting, you know, but it brought me back to like primal play again, because it felt in a lot of ways like a mirror, to how he was kind of scrapping with Romy in the motel, and in both of those scenes, the like fighting the wrestling. This sort of primal release of energy is like what allows for vulnerability and connection. And because it's after the fight that they're able to actually talk right and able to actually have a conversation. So I thought it was interesting that it was almost like Jacob's kind of getting a taste of like.

Alexia: How healing some of these like.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: Can be, and with, like Samuel straight up, is like his handler like he acts like a handler, like as a dominant right like, and even their forehead/s touching. It's like they had their forehead/s like that. When Romy and Samuel were fighting in the kitchen. Right she comes and puts her forehead against his. So there's like all this mirroring that I think is happening in that scene. I know a few people. My partner, Tiana, was like make out like I thought they were. Gonna Kiss thought

Alexia: like turn into like a you know, a sort of threesome, or like a.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: non-monogamy like ending.

Alexia: But I think that's really sweet, and it seems like he really like softens up and seems to have a new understanding of where Romy is coming from. After that

Alexia: which I love that he's.

Alexia: I think maybe there's critiques of this. I think you were kind of gesturing to that. But

Alexia: I actually like that. He's kind of part of the healing process.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah, I think I like the critique of a friend of mine,

Raechel: named something that basically prompted me to like, oh, yeah, put language to

Raechel: the fact that in some ways, because we don't know we don't quite know. Sam Samuel is the sort of like mysterious figure a little bit

Raechel: and he does sort of act in the service of these rich people, like learning more about themselves in the world and younger generations. There is this sort of almost manic pixie dream girl element, except like Dom Fuckboy, like, you know. I don't know.

Alexia: Good.

Raechel: Sexy dream man, or something where he's like he comes in to help Romy understand herself more, and then he disappears, which is such a you know, an arc that that the man in picture dream girl serves for these like leading men. So that is worth critiquing. And also he's like.

Raechel: you know, a young, obnoxious white guy like he'll be fine, like he will be fine. Yeah, you know, like so. And it's beautiful like the healing he brings to them. And I, you know we don't.

Raechel: We don't get to see.

Raechel: And this makes sense for certain types of people and personalities like and in in D/s dynamics like

Raechel: as a sub. I'm sometimes like, what is the dom getting out of this like, like, you know, they have to do all the work like. What are they getting out of it? Clearly, I know. You know I've had great conversations with doms, who like get so much healing and joy and pleasure out of those dynamics as well. So I'm sure that's true. And he clearly wants to stay in the relationship.

Alexia: M.

Raechel: But there are moments that I'm like, what is he? You know

Raechel: Romy is clearly benefiting so much more from this in my perspective.

Raechel: And he really, really brings a lot to their lives to both of them to both Jacob and Romy. So yeah, those are. Those are some thoughts on that.

Alexia: Yeah, I was thinking, too, this is kind of similar to the manic pixie dream girl.

Alexia: can't find it. I know you mentioned something in the notes around like the stabilizing of monogamy at the end.

Alexia: You want to say anything about that.

Raechel: Yeah, I couldn't remember. Somebody can correct me. My! Kitty's walking across the screen. I think it might have been an Andrea long Chu response to basically the like. I think it was the New York or New York New York Magazine, I think. Well, no, that's who Andrea Long Chu writes for so maybe not. Anyway,

Raechel: there was like this sweep of like polyamories everywhere. Now, you know everybody, you know, just this sort of like normalizing and mainstreaming of non-monogamy and polyamory. And, you know, sort of cultural analysts would kind of map it into these, like.

Raechel: You know, it became the cover of mainstream magazine like a story like these, like Upper East Side, Upper West Side couples. I don't know what's the richer part of New York. You know these like rich couples opening their marriages and like, maybe we should just consider this more normal now, like this, this sort of shift and what

Raechel: somebody or many people. I don't remember if it was one article I read, or just like the discourse, but it was like.

Raechel: or maybe it was that person who goes by Bimbo theory online, who's very smart.

Raechel: basically, it's like, when marriage is open, it ultimately is like to protect and

Raechel: stabilize and reify the construct of the marriage as the thing that need/s to be protected. It's like, yes, you can open your marriage, but for the sake of saving the marriage sort of and so there is. We kind of get that in this movie. It's like, okay. Romy had her little moment.

Raechel: But ultimately, it's like everything is the same. She just has this like new, you know, sort of sexual. Which again, for people who've experienced kink, it's like so much bigger than like. Oh, now you just have like a new sex thing to add. Add to the bedroom. It's like no, it's much more profound than that.

Alexia: -

Raechel: But ultimately, like everything is the same, the corporations, the same. The marriage is the same and they just had this little dalliance that, like.

Raechel: You know, brought some life to it, or whatever is one way to read that.

Alexia: Yeah. And I'm like, shout out to my past podcast. Episode, couple to throuple cause. We touch on that. A lot like a lot of the issues and power dynamics with couples, privilege and way things like that play out and non-monogamy.

Raechel: Yeah.

Alexia: This is like not well, I guess. Yeah, technically, an affair is non-monogamy. This isn't a story about ethical non-monogamy, but I feel like, you know, there's like hints of it all throughout that we've kind of talked about with, like

Alexia: both Samuel and Isabel kind of seeing through the rigidity of monogamy, and like the club scene, and just kind of like just kissing who's around? I don't know. That just seemed to be like a possibility that was there in the film.

Raechel: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, different. But

Raechel: Yeah, different ways. People are gonna read that. But

Alexia: Yeah.

Alexia: Raechel, is there anything we haven't talked about with this film that you want to make sure we touch on.

Raechel: Hmm! We covered a lot. It was really

Raechel: It was really fun to talk to somebody who gets it. I'm scrolling through the notes. And I did link to the rotten tomatoes audience reviews. It is really fascinating to see the difference. And I hate this because I'm going to sound so snobby and elitist.

Raechel: But maybe disproportionately.

Raechel: culture film critics like Understand Kink than non film critics. I don't know why. But basically, film critics

Raechel: are rating this movie much higher than general audiences who seem to hate it. And it was wild to read audience reviews of like, Yeah, basically just saying it was like, went from like disgusting porn to like, not sexy at all. What is this story even saying? There's no, you know we don't even. I don't even understand what this story is about. Like. There's no plot. It's so stupid.

Raechel: and it's like such a dramatically different experience than I had.

Raechel: And there are also film critics who do not understand how hot it is. So I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't not trying to say that

Raechel: they all get it, and the plebes don't at all not trying to say that, but it is. It has been really interesting to see. How much.

Raechel: how many people hate it.

Alexia: It's wild to me.

Alexia: I know. I know.

Raechel: And I do go ahead.

Alexia: Oh, and I but also, it's wild like. Who would guess that coming together would be to defend the white woman. CEO's personal liberation arc, like what is.

Raechel: I know I know which is why the

Raechel: It's so like the movie must be so good. If I'm left

Raechel: with this like wanting. Yeah, wanting to defend her.

Raechel: It's very. It would have been very easy for me to take a like fuck. The rich lady doesn’t exploit the working class, Guy, don't exploit the black assistant, don't you know there are lots of like ways that we could just like do sort of call outs about the movie. But I think

Raechel: talking to you in the beginning and just seeing our big grins and our little like tender, tender exchanges like it. This is so clearly

Raechel: made by somebody who understands the power of D/s and like. And that's beautiful and lovely, and I'm glad it exists.

Alexia: Same. Yeah, we do not get these stories. I haven't seen the secretary yet. I'm gonna watch that soon.

Raechel: You have to. It's another.

Alexia: It is.

Raechel: It is a lot campier and a lot more explicit, with sort of like the dynamics of the D/s. Like, you know, sort of the strictness of things. So it's a different kind of movie. But it is. I would say

Raechel: they're pretty on par in terms of like good representation of how powerful it can be. The

Raechel: a good ending. One of the final scenes of that movie is like a scene at a desk that is far better than one of the last scenes of the desk in this movie so I highly recommend the secretary. Secretary. Have you seen sanctuary.

Alexia: No.

Raechel: So that's interesting because it starts out in a sex work context and then it and I won't give spoilers. But I will say it starts out in a sex work context. But it is. It's a dom sub relationship with a Margaret Qualley is the Dom. So it's a gender, a gender difference. Also really good representation of subspace, though, like I forget his name, Christopher Abbott, also from girls. Is the sub

Raechel: who's like a rich Guy, and It's quite good. So those are. Those are my favorites. I've also heard Belle du Jour, which is a movie from the seventies that I haven't seen, I've heard from. People I trust is quite good. But this is a million percent in movies. I've seen top kinky movies for sure, like, top.

Raechel: Nice. Okay, well, we have our homework. If you're in.

Alexia: Yes, this BD/SM genre, we have our movies to watch.

Raechel: Yes, yay, yay.

Alexia: Okay.

Raechel: Thank you so much for inviting me on. Yeah.

Alexia: You, Raechel. It's been so fun.

Raechel: Yeah. Super. Fun.

Alexia: I'm just gonna do a quick little outro thing, and then I'll stop recording.

Raechel: Okay.

Alexia: Like, what do I even say?

Alexia: Well, it's been super fun. I hope you all enjoyed the conversation. Maybe if you didn't like this film. Maybe we shifted some things for you. Maybe you still hate it, and you hate this episode. That's fine. But if you enjoyed it, please take a moment to rate the pod. Just take a minute on any platform of your choice. And of course, if you can share on social media super helpful.

Alexia: This is a labor of love. I do this by myself when I feel like it for all of you, so give me a shout out, let me know what you think. Happy to discuss the film on Instagram. You can follow me at whatever TV Pod

Alexia: and Raechel, do you want people to follow you on Instagram. How can people find you if they're interested?

Raechel: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Instagram is pretty much the only place I exist in the social media realm. It's rebel girl with  two R's. Raechel. Just search for Raechel Anne Jolie. That's probably easier, although I have an extra E in my name. So look in the show notes and my newsletter where I write about Babygirl is called Radical Love Letters. It's hosted on Substack, and I would love folks to subscribe.

Alexia: I love Raechel's Newsletter highly. Highly. Recommend subscribing. Well, thanks. Y'all take care and be a good girl and drink your milk bye.