Queer Eye (Seasons 1-4)

Tiana Vargas guests to talk disability justice, unlearning racism, affirming masculinity, and self and collective care in seasons 1-4 of Queer Eye. Full transcript available here.

References from the episode:

Steven Wakabayashi, "My Culture Is Not Your Toy: A Gay Japanese Man's Perspective on Queer Eye Japan," November 15, 2019, Medium.

Imani Barbarin, "On Being Black and 'Disabled but Not Really,'" July 26, 2019, Rewire.

Mia Mingus, "Pods and Pod Mapping Worksheet," June 2016, Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective. 

Transcript

Alexia: Thank you for listening to Whatever, I'll Watch It, a podcast bringing queer of color critique to your favorite movies and TV. Each episode me and a guest will pick a film or television series we love or love to hate, and we'll talk gender, race, sexuality and all things representation. Because TV podcasts are way too fucking white. I'm your host, Alexia and this week we are joined by Tiana Vargas to discuss seasons 1-4 of Queer Eye. Tiana, can you let our listeners know a little bit about yourself and how you identify?

Tiana: Yeah. My pronouns are they/them/theirs, I am 29 years old, born and raised in San Diego, I am a Mexican American Chicano, I am queer, and a very faggy transsexual.

Alexia: Hell yeah. And how do we know each other, Tiana?

Tiana: We're partners.

Alexia: We're partners! We love each other and it's gross.

Tiana: It's wonderful.

Alexia: [laughs] It is wonderful. I had to convince Tiana to come on here because they're very shy sometimes but they are brilliant and I'm excited for all of you to hear their wonderful thoughts.

Tiana: Thank you for encouraging me to participate [laughs]

Alexia: So today we're going to focus on three episodes in particular, essentially the trans episode Season 2 Episode 5 The Sky's the Limit, the Chicana episode, Season 4 Episode 6 a Tale of Two Cultures and the disability episode from Season 4 Episode 2 Disabled but Not Really. I know some of you were expecting to hear us talk about Queer Eye Japan but it's really not our place or our area of expertise. Tiana and I are not Japanese, neither of us have ever visited Japan, it's not something we can talk about very confidently. I would like to point you to a really great article and critique of that season and the cultural imperialism of it, it's called My Culture is Not your Toy, A Gay Japanese Man's Perspective on Queer Eye Japan and it was published on Medium by Steven Wakabayashi. I'll include that in the show notes. He goes in depth in pointing out the norms, ideologies, and cultural values in Japan and how they're in conflict with the advice Queer Eye gives to the participants. So if you want your killjoy of that season, check out the article. 

Alexia: Let's get into the most uncomfortable of the three episodes, The Sky's the Limit. This is the one in which they are making over Skylar Jay, a white trans man who is six weeks out of top surgery. Tiana do you want to talk about how this episode opens and what's wrong with it?

Tiana: Yeah, I found the opening with the surgery wildly uncomfortable, for myself personally because I've had that surgery, and so many of my friends have too, and it was just uncomfortable to see another trans person getting cut open. I also felt like it wasn't something I was supposed to see. That is something sacred. The gaze felt like a cis gaze towards the surgery. I was really disappointed that it was the opener and the focal point of the story. I think it's an overused narrative about trans people that keeps non-trans people comfortable while at the same time erasing so much nuance around transness and how, there's just a broad range of identities and experiences for trans communities and so, it just felt really disappointing.

Alexia: It's such a literal objectification. Literally our first introduction to Skylar is a cut open body. 

Tiana: And his reveal too! Which he doesn't remember, he was out of surgery. That just felt so invasive. I would have felt better about it if Skylar introduced the clip or if I had known what his name is and who he is before seeing such an intimate moment that I'm not a part of. 

Alexia: And we find out later that he doesn't necessarily know that it was being shown to them, because he was like, "oh you guys got to see that?" which obviously he gave consent, but who knows how much paperwork he went through and what was clear. But what I want to keep pulling apart this point and connect it to this born this way narrative, this way of understanding transness as an issue that needs to be corrected, like I've been born into the wrong body, I need to change my body and correct this problem, that is the narrative we often see on TV, the narrative the show is putting forth. Why is that a problem, Tiana, what representation would you rather see? 

Tiana: It hink this narrative is what is most digestible to cisgender people that oh there's a mistake and people need to correct it. But that's just not the reality of the larger community. I'm one of those people, I don't believe I was born in the wrong body, I made some changes to my body, just like everyone else does. The meanings attached to my body I largely don't get to define, other people decide for me how they're reading me gender-wise. I just think that this really digestible version of transness overlooks the problematic ways we are socialized with gender now.

Alexia: It's interesting too because Skylar identifies as a trans man, he embraces his feminine side just as much as his masculine side, and it's interesting because it seems like throughout the episode he's more comfortable with gender fluidity than the cast is. 

Tiana: They're consumed with trying to prove Skylar's masculinity and his manhood, but it's all through cisgender undersatndings of masculinity and manhood. You can even see, when the cast describes his manhood they tense up their bodies, their shoulders get higher, they just seem overly consumed with trying to show they understand Kylar is a man.

Alexia: Skylar... you're like I don't give a shit about this white trans boy...

Tiana: I'm sorry [laughs] 

Alexia: If y'all want a fun drinking game rewatch this episode and take a shot every time they describe something as a man's man, manly, masculine, it's ridiculous how often it happens, and even when they're describing stuff like the bed, it's like, ah it's got to be masculine this is a man's room. It's so over the top [laughs]

Tiana: Yeah and again I think where this episode is perpetuating really limited ideas around masculinity and manhood. I think pigeonholing Skylar.

Alexia: I want to return to the cast and how they are interacting with Skylar and their relationship to gender in this episode. I found it really ironic that Karamo says I have a lot of familiarity with the trans community, I've worked with the trans community, but both times he says this he says, we can do better by our brothers and sisters.

Tiana: Yeah, classic.

Alexia: So it's really ironic to be like, I'm aligned with teh trans community, I'm familiar with the trans community, and then to just completely erase a huge segment of hte trans community which are nonbinary folks.

Tiana: Agreed, it was a disappointment.

Alexia: I don't know if it was just editing but I felt like Jonathan was uncharacteristically quiet and subdued in this episode. Given that Jonathan Van Ness came out as gender queer, I wonder what was coming up for him in this episode, being around these conversations, and the way the cast members were responding becuase he's pretty quiet. He doesn't actually participate in the really gendered language and is trying to affirm.. there's one really subtle moment when he's doing the makeover he mentions how testosterone has probably changed his skin. There's that one subtle moment that lets us know Jonathan knows one thing about trans folks. I was interested in that, wondering what was going on for him in the filming.

Tiana: Does JOnathan use he/him pronouns?

Alexia: I haven't heard anything else. Do you want to talk about Tan's reactions? [hesitates] You're like, no, please don't make me [laughs]

Tiana: No, I mean, it was just like, damn...this episode showed us nothing new. It was the same tired, ass trans narrative, borwn in the wrong body, we're just focusing on surgery, and no acknowledgement of nonbinary people, no push back on dominant social norms around gender, and Tan's whole air time around, I've never met a transgender person before, I can't wait to meet Skylar...

Alexia: That's really fetishizing.

Tiana: Yeah, and it's like, you wouldn't know if you had met a trans person. It was a really ignorant thing to say. 

Alexia: Real quick, I read an interview with Skylar and apparently one of the times Tan said that Skylar actually responds, that you know of. And it was cut from the episode, and it was one of the edits SKylar was upset about. 

Tiana: Well thanks for saying it Skylar, because it's true. And navigating that whole conversation with Tan getting educated and acknowledging he should be more active within the LGBTQ community to be there for trans people was just kind of this.. it felt meaningless, honestly. I've heard that from so many tired ass gays. I'm over it. Do the work. That's the big piece again that gets missed. There's not any moment where the cast is sitting there and thinking critically about gender or pushing back on their own ideas and norms, and that's a huge piece of the work to actually be an ally to trans and nonbinary people, we have to be critical fo these systems that create and sustain these norms.

Alexia: Well Tiana, the episode ends with Antoni wearing what he calls guyliner and Bobby wearing a leather skirt.

TIana: Yeah, I thought it was weird. I don't get it.

Alexia: Yeah, I'm clearly kidding. [laughs] This is not the type of deep transformation that you're asking for, but I also thought it was interesting. I don't know what to make of it. 

Tiana: I felt like it was making a mockery out of transness. It did not land well. Especially because at no point did I hear any sort of deep thinking or processing from Bobby or Antoni. 

Alexia: And again I wonder what that feels like for Jonathan as a cast member who is always playing with gender presentation. 

Tiana: I think Bobby acknowledges he got his clothes from Jonathon's closet.

Alexia: So I wonder what that's like for them, seeing your castmates dress up, oh we're going to play with gender today.

Tiana: [laughs] On our trans episode.

Alexia: Yeah, on the trans episode only. And Antoni has to affirm that it's guyliner.

Tiana: I'm so tired of that John Meyer look alike.

Alexia: [laughs] The controversy! Why don't you like Antoni?

Tiana: I think his approach to some conversations, I'm thinking about that episode in Queer Eye Japan, where he's having a conversation with a mom and daughter, it was really uncomfortable. He was like, basically telling them you're not expressing or sharing love the right way, you need to do it this way. I think that article points to some really poignant things in that conversation, the one you recommended earlier, but the things Antoni was suggesting they do were suggestions for practices in the west. I feel like that happens often with him, where it's like dude you need to ask more questions.

Alexia: There's also an episode, I can't remember which one, I think it's an older maybe Polish guy who works at a church and hangs out in a bowling alley. When they first meet, Antoni is walking around the house talking to him and three or four times he says, you're just like my dad, oh my god, you're just like my dad. It felt really belittling, or it's like, you just met this person and you're making a lot of assumptions and really projecting onto them. How is that supposed to make them feel comfortable opening up when you're already immediately showing that you already decided you know this person, within a few minutes of meeting them?

Tiana: One thing I do appreciate is that he smells everything. I love that. 

Alexia: [laughs] That is a Tiana Vargas move, for sure. Their number one way of engaging with the world is through smell.

TIana: It's true.

Alexia: I think Antoni... he's just hot. I know you don't think so.

Tiana: That's not true!

Alexia: I don't mind lurking on the Instagram.

Tiana: At first glance, yes, he's very stereotypically attractive. But the way he shows up in the world, I'm just like girl, you're done.

Alexia: There's something about his mouth. His little pointy teeth, I'm into it.

Tiana: Does it remind you of a dog? 

Alexia: [laughs] Honestly probably the vampire energy. I'm deep over here into Buffy fan fiction and I'm like ooh, he's a little vampiric.

Tiana: And his guyliner.

Alexia: Honestly that fucks me up. Been a fan of that since my emo days, when I was twelve years old and used to save pictures on my desktop of boys in eyeliner making out. 

Tiana: Classic [laughs]

Alexia: How do you feel about the way the cast polices Skylar's really visible, celebratory displays of queerness in his house?

Tiana: I'm just like, y'all, we've all been there, don't be rude! [laughs] I keep coming back to this, I just wish they would ask more questions to understand SKylar's enthusiasm. Why dampen it? It kind of just felt like the way they were expressing that was really dampening that. If I was hearing that, I would have felt embarrassed.

Alexia: There's a few different times where Bobby is like, queer is the pillar of Skylar, not the house. And when they go shopping together, Skylar sees this reflective, shiny, rainbow trashcan and Bobby in this tone, it almost sounds like he's being reprimanding, he says, queer is a pillar, like reminding him.

Tiana: Get him the trash can, relax. I get it, and I don't think they were wrong, but why didn't they spend more time uncovering the other pillars of SKylar? Why don't we hear about that?

Alexia: If they're trying to dig deeper and understand people's identity issues, which is one of the themes of this show, I think it's worth having a conversation around that. But another thing we see with this policing of Skylar, it's a theme across the show, is this hyperfocus on age appropriate clothing. At one point, Bobby says, Skylar is thirty and he's dressed like a skater boy. I'm like... 30?

Tiana: That's young.

Alexia: I'm almost 30, I'm wearing a tiny crop top, this is my outfit, how dare y'all come tell me I can't be wearing crop tops. 

Tiana: Yeah, I think the age appropriateness and just how they measure respectability is really interesting, that shows up all over the place. I think it's uncomfortable. I wish it was more framed around, we want to give you dynamic looks. I don't think there's anything wrong with a skater boy look.

Alexia: There is something wrong with his popped collar at the end. 

Tiana: I agree [laughs]

Alexia: No excuses! [laughs]

Tiana: I agree with you 100%. And so yes, I just wish it was framed around giving more dynamic looks rather than passing judgement on how they're showing up now. That can alienate some viewers too. Again, the type of norms that Queer Eye upholds are... they're not pushing back against any harmful soical norms, they are up lifting most of them.

Alexia: Also, with the house renovation.. they're renting.

Tiana: I have so many questions about this. 

Alexia: I think often, let's be honest, whenever we see these middle-aged white people they are home owners, they own the homes being renovated, not in all the cases, but we see cases where they do. There's some episodes wehre it's clear people are renting, I think the two where it's most obvious is interestingly when we have queer participants, so Skylar's episode he is renting and has roommates, and then I can't remember her name but the episode with the Black lesbian who also had roommates and was renting. Either way, it's like, this thing that's a gift, giving you this nice home, are they just going to use this to raise your rent and kick you out?

Tiana: I would love for there to be a more intentional approach to their process. I do wonder, how do participants sustain this afterwards? I don't have the knowledge to know if any of that is thought out or talked about with participants afterwards, because it's like... I feel like they're doing stuff for their show. That's what Queer Eye Japan was about, in a lot of ways they weren't actually helping their participants or transforming their lives, it was just all about their show. 

Alexia: One of the first things we learn about Skylar is he is about to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt because of negligence when he went in for surgery, so the $20,000 they put into renovating this place he doesn't even own, could that have gone towards a down payment for hooking him up with a badass lawyer? Why wasn't that their idea on how to help him? Doesn't make for as good of TV, I guess. It's also worth pointedly saying it matters to critique this stuff because these are patterns of behavior we see repeated time again, where people who want to help aren't willing to take the time to really ask questions to hear from people what they need and offer that help. It's more about the giver doing a thing they think would be helpful, that they want to do, that makes them feel good, than actually trying to be helpful in the way that's most effective for the person who needs it.

Tiana: It's performative. That's what I pick up pretty often from this show.

Alexia: Obviously it's fucked up, the nonbinary erasure, the foucs on trans bodies and surgeries, this corrective narrative, but I think the show did do a decent job of showing some real struggles trans folks have to deal with. Some of them, like, he crowdfunded that surgery, which is fucking common. We found out he dealt with helathcare discrimination and misgendering, like literally laying ont eh table getting ready to undergo top srugery, being misgendered. We see the hassle of dealing with bureaucratic paperwork and gatekeeping. He Talks about what a scarring, terrible experience it was trying to get his ID changed. He was told to come back when you're complete. And he mentions he hasn't gone to a tailor because they pose safety concerns for him. So, I actually thought in that sense, the show does illumiante some of tehse other dimensions of teh trans experience, whatever the fuck that means, but ti is probleamtic the way it's framed as indivdiual obstacles to overcome rather than teh structural problems created by widesrpead transphobia.

Tiana: I agree with you. They told a good story, and failed to call in action, or give a systemic critique that I think could push all those things further.

Alexia: The narrative we keep hearing from the cast is we can do more for trans poeple, I need to do more for trans people, and it's like, what would it  have taken at teh end, instead of doing Jonathan's here's how to walk in heels or whatever it is, to just give people super fucking simple, here's five ways to show up for trans people. How hard would that have been? But it's not what they're about. Are you ready to talk Chicanx culture?

Tiana: Oh god.

Alexia: Let's move on to Season 4 Episode 6, A Tale of Two Cultures featuring Deanna Muñoz. The focus of the episode like a lot of the episodes is on Deanna's identity issues, she doesn't feel Chicana enough, but she's not white enough. She talks about how she can't speak Spanish and she tears up at one point when she says she doesn't know how to cook Mexican food. I think she implies she grew up around other Mexican Americans but then moved into whiter neighborhoods and now she feels really disconnected from her culture. But as we see throughout the episode, she hangs out at lowrider shows and organizes her town's latino arts festival and is trying her best to get connected to those roots [laughs]

Tiana: Relatable. Her story is very relatable to me personally. I also struggle with feeling Mexican enough. I can really relate to her story and process of socialization. I am frustrated that her roots are lowrider shows and a film festival [Alexia laughs]. I'm not trying to bag on her, but the show has curated this story and I think it is way over simplified and like, damn, y'all just bought into another stereotype. I really wish this show challenged more dominant narratives about people. Her latinidad was also very connected to her hoops, her unprofessional outfits, so that was an interesting way that the cast showed their value on respectability, you know. At some point Tan was like I would have no idea that you have a respectable organization, the latino film festival, which...the things they are pointing out that are wrong and unprofessional are also the things they're connecting to her latinidad.

Alexia: Exactly!

Tiana: It feels like their critique is you're not performing whiteness enough to show you're a respectable person running an organization, and it holds so much irony in that the organization is about latinidad. 

Alexia: But don't worry, if she dresses nice she can keep her hoops.

Tiana: That's right. And you know, another opportunity missed for professionalism to be challenged, transformed, shapeshifted to something different. None of that creativity. 

Alexia: Another thing that's interesting about the hoops being the aspect of latinidad she can hold onto is that it's also an aspect of latinidad that's admired and appropriated by white folks. There was a point in time in which wearing hoops was very much associated with this certain type of racialized latinidad that was looked down upon and since then it's become this fashion trend stripped of its origin and meanings. And it's making me think too about them saying to Skylar, queer is the pillar. It's really about stripping it down to one or two little aspects of your identity that are okay to show and then the rest of it, you just have to keep it quiet.

Tiana: I think this show time and time again, prioritizes digestible stories, over simplified versions of people's lives and identities. And I think what's interesting too, we learn about Deanna's story, in her neighborhood and when she's been out, she's experienced discrimination and racism, and we learn that, it probes empathy for Deanna, and then we just get right back into fixing and modifying her and not addressing the violence of whiteness. I just felt like, damn, another airball for them. I would have really appreciated a more critical dialogue around racism, versus, she gets comments when she goes to the store, we're just going to fix her up and she'll go back out to her neighborhood and go door to door and be friendly, more digestible to her peers, which feels like this process of assimilation, which is all about making white people more comfortable.

Alexia: I'm so glad you brought that up and I want to unpack more about the way this show frames the discrimination and harassment that Deanna has dealt with. So she basically says she can't go to the store without getting dirty looks, she talks about being physically attacked by a man in a store who hit her with a broom and told her to go back to her own country, and she talks about getting weird looks from her neighbors. These people are not ever named as white. All of these things, all of these incidents, they never name whiteness or white people as actually being the problem, which feels intentional. When Karamo comes over to the house he very intentionally asks her, are there other Mexicans or African Americans in the neighborhood? Again, not naming whiteness as the problem, what's making her uncomfortable. And then what you brought up Tiana, Karamo's solution is to have her talk with her neighbors, go door to door, and Deanna brings up this really explicitly racist interaction she had with a neighbor and Karamo is like okay, we'll skip the house, but I'm going with you, you're going to talk with everyone else. So we see this tearful moment where Deanna shares her experiences with a neighbor and talks about how it's really hard feeling unaccepted because she just wants to be respectful and mind her own business and we see this white woman being like oh, we didn't know that you were feeling that way. And then they show her again, coming to the art show, trying to construct this narrative, we just need to accept each other's differences, white folks just need to come out to latino arts festivals, and then what's really difficult, after all of this, after they do the door knocking, Deanna says to Karamo, I always talk about people being close-minded and here I was being the same way. It's really dangerous to make an equivalence between Deanna feeling fearful and distrustful of white neighbors after experiencing racism repeatedly from whtie people, that is not the same as her neighbors having racist attitudes and prejudices towards her based on a racist society with racist messages around Mexican Americans. It's just not the same and the show is setting it up like, we all just need to give each other a chance. 

Tiana: I agree.

Alexia: I'm not trying to dump on Deanna for having that experience. 

Tiana: Of course. It's great to hear she was pleasantly surprised about something. I think the episode failed to support her with that in not naming whiteness or critiquing it. If you're going to talk about racism, which the episode did, you have to name whiteness. You have to critique it. 

Alexia: The other failure here is it frames racism as being about individual acts of bigotry and violence. It's about the neighbor talking about building a wall, it's about being hit by someone at the grocery store, it's about getting dirty looks from individual people. It gives us this idea that racism is something that white people can either opt in of or out of, like the neighbor who's like, I didn't know you felt that way and went to the art show, we might think oh, great, that neighbor is opting out of racism, they're a nice supportive person. But in reality, that's not actually how racism works, it's a structure.

Tiana: Well it's something we've all been socialized with, we all have racism to unlearn, every single one of us, and we all have to be engaged in the process. In no way is that conveyed throughout the episode. 

Alexia: Not the most important critique to share, but I just had to bring up this moment because I thought it was really funny, something I found out about Antoni when I was doing research for this show is that Antoni has never been to culinary school, he's never worked as a chef, he pretty much knew one of the producers and has cooked for them before and got the gig on the show. He has been pretty widely critiqued by people watching the show, like, does he actually know how to cook? He got dragged after he put sour cream into guacamole, so he was stoked this episode when he comes to this Mexican American family's house and finds out they put sour cream into guacamole.

Tiana: He puts greek yogurt [laughs]

Alexia: I know, I know, that's the thing, he was stoked, he was trying to justify it! 

Tiana: Yes, that was interesting and I was also happy he wasn't trying to teach these women how to cook. I was so thankful like, there you go boy, have a seat. Let somebody else take the reins. I did appreciate that.

Alexia: I agree, but he does have a moment where he's standing there trying to tell them, oh I put lime on my guacamole so that it stays fresh. I'm like, bitch you think they don't know that? [Tiana laughs] How did you feel about his attempts at SPanish throughout the episode?

Tiana: I fucking hate when non-Spanish speakers speak Spanish to me. That's a weird, performative way to try and connect with me culturally. I don't like it. Ask me if I want to speak Spanish with you. It also seemed like they were monolingual.

Alexia: The mother-in-law didn't speak.. she did speak some English, but it seemed like she was more comfortable speaking Spanish.

Tiana: I think because they're monolingual it makes sense for him to be trying to speak Spanish. I think if they were able to speak English and were speaking English to him and he was speaking Spanish, that's where it's like, alright dude, match the language. We don't need you to perform your cultural relevance, it's weird.

Alexia: On this note, there's this way sometimes where it feels like Antoni is trying to distance himself from U.S. whiteness or something. There's been a number of times...

Tiana: I'm Canadian!

Alexia: That's it, he mentions being Canadian and I think Polish? I could be wrong. But I'm just thinking about that too, it's interesting, he's trying to distance himself from whiteness in some respects, like I'm ethnic! 

Tiana: Girl whiteness is a global construct, you're still white [laughs]

Alexia: I think we touched on the issues with Deanna's makeover. I don't know how much I want to add, but I just want to say I thought she was cute from the start.

Tiana: Obviously. Absolutely.

Alexia: She's really cute. I can understand they might be like, girl don't use ten hair sprays, but even her hairstyle, I thought it was cute.

Tiana: Yeah it was absolutely cute. But I am glad they took the hairspray from her because her hair was about to fall out! [laughs]

Alexia: The clothes they put her in, usually I fuck with Tan, but I didn't like any of the outfits they put her in until the jumpsuit at teh end. THat was cute.

Tiana: That was fire [takes a deep breath]

Alexia: Ooh, you look like you're about to say something controversial! 

Tiana: No, I just, I thought some of his outfits for her were fine, I just think he dresses himself better than he dresses any participant. 

ALexia: That just feels like a classic gay man move. Okay so something I feel really confused by, the episode ends with Deanna saying I feel like I'm a million percent Chicana. [laughs] I'm like, wait, what?

Tiana: Yeah. Happy to hear she's embracing herself [laughs] I don't know, it's an interesting way that race is largely talked about, I'm fifty percent this and forty percent this and it's a very rigid understanding of race and ethnicity. 

Alexia: It's blood quantum. It's based in actual white supremacist tracking of racial difference.

TIana: It's true. So I'm not surprised by her commentary, it's just like.. it sounds like some enthusiasm, she's feeling confident and solid in her footing. But it would have been refreshing to have race and ethnicity framed in a more nuanced, complicated, fluid way. 

Alexia: Something else is we find out Karamo is afro-latinx. When he first meets Deanna he says he talks more about his Jamaican side but he's also Cuban. He's excited to sepnd time with the show's first latina.. which, I was like, season four, this is the first time we've gotten a latinx person on Queer Eye? Is that real?

Tiana: Karamo said it. 

Alexia: Damn. What?

Tiana: I mean, that we know about, right?

Alexia: Right [both laugh] Okay, I'm just laughing because I'm thinking about our trans conversation earlier -- not that you know of! Check your assumptions. But you know what, we know no-one else is latinx because here's what happens on this show, if you have any sort of idenitty maker that makes you not a part of hte dominant class, the whole episode is going to be focused on that fucking identity. 

Tiana: 100%.

Alexia: It is so fetishizing. Never do we see the whiteness of all the white people explored. We cannot move on without me sharing, you know the cringey transitions where they're like, dancing, and there's little phrases and stuff? There's one point where it says from chica-no to chica-yes. 

Tiana: Yeah, hated that. [Alexia laughs] Really wish they would have scrapped that.

Alexia: It's so disrespectful.

Tiana: It really is. Especially the chicano, chicana, chicanx, that is a politicized, intentional identity for Brown folks and it did feel like this over sensationalized, performative thing that was disrespectful to the language.

Alexia: Absolutely, if you think about the connotations of no it's like, chica no, this is a thing you don't want to be, which actually maybe it is the perfect metaphor because they're like, chica no, we're going to stirp you of these markers of your identity and we're going to make you chica yes. You can keep the hoops though. It's actually perfect. 

Tiana: Yeah, yeah. 

Alexia: Alright, last we have Season 4 Episode 2 Disabled but Not Really. The episode focuses on Wesley Hamilton, a disabled Black activist and father who was paralyzed by a gunshot wound and uses a wheelchair. The episode title comes from Wesley's nonprofit organization called Disabled but not Really which focuses on giving disabled communities access to fitness, wellness, and mental health. Throughout the episode we see Wesley represented as a really strong, confident, capable person and this is set up like a contrast to his struggles as a disabled person in a society that is ableist. It's not designed for him to be able to access spaces, to be able to reach objects that he needs to use, our society in general is designed for very particular types of bodies. So that's kind of the focal point of the episode. There's a lot to talk about, maybe we should start there with representations of disability, how does that sound Tiana?

Tiana: Yeah. 

Alexia: So something I thought was interesting in this episode, we're definitely going to get into some of the critiques of how disability is represented, but I think it does a decent job of showing what is referred to as the social model of disability. Basically what that means, it's a way of thinking about disability that says disability is created by ableist societies. So, while there's all different types of bodies, abilities, mobilities, people become disabled when the world is set up in a way that only really caters to a specific, able-bodied norm. For example, if a grocery store has a set of stairs, a person who uses a wheelchair becomes disabled in that moment because they can't access the grocery store, whereas if it has a ramp or other types of accessibility, it's no longer disabling. There are some critiques of this model because it erases things like pain, bodily experiences that the social model of disability cannot erase. But it is helpful for rethinking disability and moving our idea of disability from something grounded in individual bodies into something grounded in society, and that we actually have a collective responsibility for. Bobby says at one point in the episode, Wesley doesn't need anybody to do anything for him, but this house makes him struggle more than he needs to. We see he can't get clothes down from the clothing racks in the closet, he can't turn the stove off and on, I mean he can but he's covered in burns because it's not accessible and hard to reach, and we also see he has a hard time navigating the grocery store where a lot of things are placed up high where he can't reach it. I thought it did a good job educating people on the social model of disability, in that sense, where we can see, where able-bodied people can see, these things that are perhaps being taken for granted as the way it is are actually really harmful and reducing access. In that sense too, the home makeovers are always nice to see, but I thought it was especially interesting and powerful in this episode to see Wesley have a home he can actually be comfortable in and navigate.

Tiana: Yeah, it seemed really well thought out. 

Alexia: I thought this was my favorite home renovation that we've seen because of that. But I know we were talking off air about the issue with renovating the home when there's all these other spaces Wesley can't access, do you want to add anything about that?

TIana: I think the transformation of Wesley's home is really amazing and important. And also, it doesn't change everything he needs to navigate outside of his home. I don't know what I expect the role of the hosts to be, because I'm like, y'all need to talk to the grocery store that Wesley goes to. I'm just thinking about those other spaces, and I'm glad Wesley has a home that is functional and beautiful.

Alexia: I think again, it comes back to, this is a collective responsibility. It's great Queer Eye gave him this home that's acessible, that's comfortable, that he can use, but all the able-bodied poeple watching this show, it's also on us, to be advocating for access and inclusion in these spaces. That's going to make a huge difference in Wesley's life but it's not going to make the world any easier to navigate when he has to go other places.

Tiana: I guess that makes me think about interdependence. Wesley, largely the way the show depicts it, is he gets his care from his mother. The changes in his home are going to make him a little more independent from her, specifically thinking about laundry, that was something she came over regularly to do, because it used to be in his basement. I'm wondering about mom and her own networks of care and what she needs. I know there was one conversation around what her experience was caring for Wesley and we got to see her during the reveal, but I would have loved to see more investment in mom, some more care around her.

Alexia: Her name is Dawn.

Tiana: I would have loved to see more care around and for Dawn. I would have loved to see that. And I think that it would have been important for the cast to also sit with Wesley to think about his own pod, his own network of people, so it's not just mom he has to rely on. I think in general that's a great conversation with people because we can't do things on our own. 

Alexia: Or rely on the same people over and over and over for all of our care.

TIana: Yeah, unfortunately, we can't. Networks of care are vital for all of us. It would have been great to see some brainstorming on Wesley's network of care and Dawn's network of care as well.

Alexia: I agree and I'm glad you brought this up. Something that didn't sit well with me and I know a lot of disabled activists, writers, and viewers were talking about when this episode aired is the really problematic way this show is pitting independence against interdependence. Independence is a good thing, we want people to have autonomy and decision making power over their lives and independence has been a really important goal of a lot of disability movements, mostly disability rights movements which tend to be unmarked as white disability movements, but independence needs to be coupled with interdependence which is what the disability justice movement which has been centered around the needs and realities of disabled BIPOC have taught us. While people need to have autonomy and decision making power we also need to recognize the fact that we are all dependent on each other, we are all interrelated and interconnected. This desire to be a completely independent, self-reliant person that's a capitalist, white man. That erases all the labor that women and femmes have historically done in the home, the labor that immigrants and working class BIPOC communities do to put food on our table. The reality is, we're extremely interdependent and that's not something to be scared of, it's a good thing that we need to actually recognize and acknowledge and invest into. I also felt like it was really... insensitive, I guess, the way they kept framing the transformation of Wesley's home as giving Dawn her freedom. 

Tiana: Yes. I think it was fucked up, honestly.

Alexia: We have this non-Black cast telling this Black woman that she's free now that her son no longer needs to ask her for help with laundry. There's so many layers of what is wrong and anti-black with that. It's also just like, what kind of message are you sending to disabled people that if someone in your life is caring for you and helping you with care work around the home, that they are enslaved? That's what the metaphor does. By equating this with freedom, you're saying that she was living in slavery before. That's incredibly harmful, and I know that scene in particular was really triggering for some disabled viewers. So many disabled people struggle with feeling like a burden and having a hard time asking for help because of all these messages in our society that you shouldn't have to do that. I want to bring in another voice, Imani Barbarin, she's on Twitter as crutchesandspice. If y'all don't know her work, go look her up right now, she's an amazing disabled activist and writer. She wrote a piece about this episode called "On Being Black and Disabled but not Really." She wrote this piece because basically what happened is that a lot of white disabled people were writing a bunch of critiques and critcisms of the episode without really taking into account how a Black dsiabled person's experience is different. So Imani pointed out that while yes, that scene was problematic and triggering, it is really important that we recognize the labor that Black women do for their families and their communities, so while Imani herself did have a hard time watching that scene she also recognized the importance in recognizing Dawn's labor and thanking her for it, and alleviating some of it. But I think Tiana what you pointed out, is it shouldn't be, Wesley's independent now, thank you Dawn, you can go live your life, but rather it should be like... hey Dawn...

Tiana: You can engage with your son in other ways. 

Alexia: Or like, looks like you could use some care as well, where are your support networks? How can we help get you in touch with the resources that you need? 

Tiana: Mhm, yeah. 

Alexia: Since I already brought up Imani Barbarin I want to touch on the super crip trope as well. There's a few ways this comes up in media. One way this comes up is when disabled people are celebrated for doing things that would be considered ordinary for any able-bodied person to do. Something like, oh this person has a disability but look at them shopping for themselves, amazing, you're so inspirational! We're proud of you! This very belittling treatment of everyday life. Another way it comes up is when media over-represents disabled people who go above and beyond show abilities far beyond what a normative able-bodied person would have. So something like, look at this blind man who hiked to the top of Mt. Everest! In this show we see this form of the super crip trope, or perhaps it flirts with it a little bit, where we see a lot of scenes of Wesley using his chair, like pulling up this big ass rope and doing push-ups. At one point Wesley literally says, my daughter calls this my Superman chair, I have to be Superman. This is another one of those things that a lot of white disabled activists were critiquing, and some people were even criticizing Wesley for naming his organization Disabled but not Really and were saying that was like internalized ableism. Imani in that same article, On Being Black and Disabled but not Really, she pushes back against these critiques. She points out that Black disabled people have really valid reasons to not want to claim a dsiabled identity and take up the same sort of space and visibility that white disabled people might want to. Because Black dsiabled folks already belong to a marginalized group, they already deal with constant threats to their lives and people who don't want to see them as fully human. Taking on disability on top of the racial identity can be a way to become more vulnerable and have that vulnerability used as a weapon. So Imani points out that Wesley is really just being strategic and tactful in figuring out, what is the best way he can specifically reach the Black disabled community and to advocate for his community in the way that's going to be most effective and accessible for them. I guess for me I want to be careful not to critique Wesley for the way he named his organization or the way he shows up in the episode, but I think we do need to be mindful about the way that Queer Eye, the cast and the producers, are framing disability, and I find it interesting that.. this is the disability episode, like this is the person they chose to highlight as someone who does actually fall into the super crip trope, at the end of the day.

Tiana: Yes.

Alexia: So another thing we can dig into here, this isn't just a representation of disability, it's specifically a representation of a Black disabled man and father. I think it's really interesting that they chose specifically to highlight a Black man who became disabled after being shot by a Black man. What do you think about that choice Tiana, and how they represent Wesley's past as a bad boy, which is what they constantly say?

Tiana: Yeah. The character arc of Wesley starts at the beginning of his upbringing, of growing up around drug deals and drug dealing. He's a self described bad boy, there's a series of images we see of him with his middle finger, like displays of aggression, is what was contributing to characterizing him as this bad guy from a bad place, full of violence, and he experienced violence, he was shot by another Black man, which is what actually happened to him. But I also think it falls into a dangerous trope around Black on Black violence. 

Alexia: Yes, absolutely, and I think it's tricky like you said because that's his story, that's a reality for some people in this country, but it's a reality that gets exaggerated and distorted, foten as a way of justifying police violence, which is often much more of a threat to Black people's lives than violence from other Black people. The fact that the show, altogether, even in an episode with a police officer, fails to name police violence, that's really dangerous and harmful to re-enforce this stereotype. But I agree with you, it's tricky. This is Wesley's experience, we don't want to invalidate that. But it is interesting, the episode really hones in on the ableism that Wesley deals with due to inaccessible spaces, but I don't recall seeing any references really, to racism in the episode. 

Tiana: No, none.

Alexia: We know that Wesley's experience as a person who is both disabled and Black is colored by both of those things, we can't separate that out. It's really interesting the episode chooses to focus on his disability but doesn't talk about the ways that his Blackness informs his disability and vice versa. 

Tiana: I think the show is negligent in talking about race. When we think about Deanna's episode where she literally talks about being harassed by her neighbors or chased out of the store specifically around being Mexican American, they still fail to say it. They still fail to name it and talk about racism. So I'm unfortunately not surprised that it didn't come up for them. 

Alexia: Again it's so problematic and violent and harmful because the show is depicting most of the violence that Wesley experience being at the hand of a Black man, when in reality, we know there are all these structural forms of racism that shape people's life chances, that created violence in the neighborhood that Wesley lived in in the first place. Of course none of that is getting unpacked, so if someone doesn't have a critical framework for understanding anti-Blackness and structural racism before watching this episode, they could actually just walk away with certain stereotypes being further engrained or validated by this story that we're seeing. But I am curious to talk about the scene where Wesley talks with the man who shot him. We'll get into this more in a second, but there was an interesting line where Wesley says, we are two Black men and we are doing something they don't want us to do, and that is forgive each other but also uplift each other.

Tiana: I was reading, and that conversation was actually four hours long between the two of them, and was cut into those little snippets. It seems like they got what they needed out of the conversation.

Alexia: That's interesting to me it was four hours long because the way they edited it it just felt like this really, uncomfortable, tense, brief conversation in which it was kind of just like, why did you do this thing, here's why, and then just like, okay. But it sounds like there may have actually been a lot more depth and maybe recognition of some of these structural factors or things outside of their just immediate experience that could have influenced this violence and this harm that they experienced together. Kind of on a different note but another thing I wanted to pull apart from this scene is this, we see a lot of emphasis on this idea that reconciliation is a necessary step for healing. Throughout the episode, WEsley tells Karmao he doesn't know why he was shot and Karamo says there's been a lot of growth but we're not seeing a lot of healing. And Karamo thinks that in order for him to heal, he needs to reconcile with the man who shot them and they need to have a conversation in order to be able to move on. He actually says, he hasn't put the past behind him, if he's going to move on he has to get clarity about that night. So I want to unpack that a little bit. Tiana, why might it be a problem for us to need reconciliation for our healing?

Tiana: We don't always get to have that conversation to reconcile things, and that just doesn't always have to be people's process for healing and moving on and processing. It doesn't have to be with the individual who caused harm. I think it's kind of dangerous to farme healing in a way that it's dependent on the harm done. 

Alexia: This is also one of the reasons why restorative justice has been critiqued as a model for repairing harm. There's obviously different ways this plays out on the ground but as a framework, the idea of restoration, restorative justice, is that you are restoring a relationship to how it was prior. It makes an assumption there's something to go back to that's healthier and better. What a lot of people maybe buy into as a better alternative is this idea of transformative justice which is transforming our social relationships, transforming our institutions, as a harm reduction model, to get rid of the roots of violence and harm. So this is really more of a restorative justice model where it's very focused on these two people have to sit down together to find healing, and I think a transformative justice model would recognize that actually, the person who's been harmed, their healing can look many different ways, and at the end of the day, they're the ones who choose what's going to be best for them. In this scene it does seem kind of survivor focused, right, because Karamo of course is in conversation with Wesley asking if this is something that he wants, if they can set this up for him, and it seems like Wesley did get what he wanted out of the experience. But again, in terms of this show modeling for people how they're supposed to live their lives or how they're supposed to heal, I think that's just kind of dangerous, this idea they have to reconcile to move on for the reasons you highlighted.

Tiana: Yeah, I think very often we don't get to reconcile with our abusers or the people that harm us. And I think we need more models of reconciling that pain and hurt when you can't engage with the abuser or the person who's harmed you. I think there's also times when our abusers or the people who harm us aren't safe to reconcile with. So what do we do? What are we left with? I just think we need other models of healing so that people have more options to choose what they need to feel better about the harm that's been done. 

Alexia: Another thing that's kind of interesting in terms of disability representation, we get to see Wesley is a father. He's a caregiver himself. I feel like that kind of inverts the trope of disabled people receive care, when in actuality, many disabled people are also caregivers for the people in their lives. So I just really liked seeing that and his relationship with his daughter, I Thought that was really special and sweet.

Tiana: Yeah, I really enjoyed Wesley as a representation of masculinity, as well. I think that his ability to be so reflective on not just the past he comes from, but also in how he shows up with his daughter, how he shows up with his mom, he also is showing up in service to his community. I just really appreciated how he... I appreciate how he moves, in his relationships, and with himself. He's really self-aware. It's also just... he was so enjoyable to watch, the cast comments on how much he's smiling and how engaging he is, and how kind, and kind of silly too. It was really enjoyable to watch because I think that a lot of representations of masculinity and men don't make space for those things. I think largely men and boys are not given the space to express themselves in all kinds of ways, in silly ways, in sad ways. I would even argue, even anger, is supposed to be expressed a particular, violent way. I just really appreciated Wesley as a wonderful representation of fatherhood and of masculinity. I think it sets a great example for other men to think about how they can be in service to their community and how they can show up in fatherhood and how they should treat their mothers, you know? And also be reflective on themselves.

Alexia: I totally agree. He is incredibly charming and just so enjoyable to watch.

Tiana: You know, a lot of his stuff...a lot of his goals for himself are around self-sufficiency, which is very tied to his wheelchair use, but I feel like that easily could have gone down that route of like, this is about my manhood, and I didn't sense any of that coming from him. Working out too, I think working out and gyms are very hyper masculine, male spaces and can be really intimidating, and I also appreciated his approach to working out too, and that being centered around community empowerment and not about a source of, about affirming his masculinity or manhood.

Alexia: Yeah, it's not tied to domination. Usually strength or self-sufficiency, economic success, that is focused on this stereotypical, patriarchal, usually white man not having to rely on anyone. But I think what you're pulling out here for Wesley is the way he operates, the way he moves through the world, it all comes from a place of care. His exercising is not about being strong so he can dominate others, it's about taking care of himself, feeling good, and creating space for other dsiabled people to be able to do that. Him wanting to be self-sufficient, that's coming from a place of care for his mother, for Dawn, for wanting her to have a chance to rest. It's not about proving himself or his manhood it's about taking care of the people in his life. So I agree and I think that's really beautiful. We can still see some of these stereotypical traits associated with masculinity like strength and independence but what's it rooted in and what's propelling it makes such a big difference in how it shows up.

Tiana: Yeah. And I think largely the conversations around Queer Eye challenging toxic masulinity have to do a lot about, talking with men about grooming, their relationships. I think they're good and they're great conversations but I think Wesley is a great model actually of some affirming masculinity that is rooted in community, empowerment of others, and investment in women and femmes. 

Alexia: Mhm, yes. I'm snapping because I agree with that. I'm thinking too about how social change needs to be relational. I think a lot of what Queer Eye is pushign for, is that if men put a little foundation on their face, they use makeup and talk about their feelings, like, that's going to get rid of toxic masculinity. It's like no, actually, because toxic masculinity is essentially about how men show up in relationship to women and femmes and gender non-conforming people, so that's actually where the change has to happen. 

Tiana: Yeah. And those other things are good stretches, that's kind of how I see those things, putting on makeup or talking about makeup or talking about grooming or wearing bright colors, those are all great stretches to do, but those are stretches before the workout. The workout, the work, are those deeper values where the individual actually has to operate from a different place than how manhood and masculinity has been traditionally defined.

Alexia: Alright, let's transition now into a broader conversation about Queer Eye as a show and some of the recurring themes across the seasons. Something I know you talked about throughout the episodes is the way this show upholds harmful norms. So with Skylar, you talked about the way they aren't exploring other ways of thinking about or doing gender. With Deanna, you were talking about how the show doesn't explore how professionalism could look differently, how it doesn't need to be this white, middle-class standard of how to dress or present yourself. But a big norm we haven't talked about yet is fatphobia and we absolutely cannot end this episode without talking about that, so I was wondering if there was anything you wanted to touch on, in terms of how this show upholds normative ideas around bodies.

Tiana: Yeah. So I think we see throughout the seasons, Tan's fashion advice is all about how to make the individual look slimmer and how to hide parts of the body that are embarrassing to the participant. Most of the time it's focused around the belly. Something that's become really popular from the show is the french tuck.

Alexia: Every episode!

Tiana: Yes, yes [laughs]. And I've also heard people that I know mention this, as a way to hide their belly. For myself, I've always had a belly, I've always had a spare tire.

Alexia: Belly club! Me too.

Tiana: And it's always been something I've been embarrassed about because other people told me I was supposed to be embarrassed about it. I remember being a little girl and people poking at my belly or poking at my sides and immediately knowing, like, this is not what my body should look like. I know I grew up trying to find all kinds of ways to hide my own belly, wearing oversized clothing... so yeah, I think when I'm watching the episodes, I'm thinking about my younger self trying to find all these ways to hide my belly and what, now, I wish was that an adult had told me that my belly is okay, that I actually didn't need to hide it, that it isn't something embarrassing, and that actually the other way people are treating me is not right, is not okay. I think something I wish the show would do is unpack that some more and encourage the participant to not be ashamed of their body versus strategizing how to hide it. There's a lot of conversations we don't see between teh participant and the hosts of Queer Eye, and so my hope is that maybe between cuts, hopefully Tan is giving affirmations about their body. What I can also understand is they may encourage participants to love their bodies or whatever but the participant isn't going to be like, oh you're right, I'm all good now. I think we're socialized to shaem our bodies when we're not skinny. I'm not saying that's the fix for it, but I wish there were more conversations around challenging body-shaming and outwardly and loudly embracing and loving fat bodies and not just trying to hide them. 

Alexia: I absolutely agree. I think Tan's approach, he does tend to be like, oh there's nothing wrong with your body, but then it's like, we just need to find the right way for you to dress. So it's like, I guess it's maybe better than teh orignal Queer Eye in the sense that he's not necessarily shaming poeple and telling them you just need to lose some wegiht, he's not doing that, but he is thinking if you have a fat body there is a particular way you have to carry or present yourself. But that's what we see, and that's what we mean when we say this show upholds harmful norms is that the hole show is about, there are these particular steps that you are supposed to take to do... your life right, basically, this is how you're supposed to be in the world, this is how you're supposed tos how up.Do you mind if I go on an academic tangent related to that? 

Tiana: Yeah, do your thing.

Alexia: Okay. Something I was thinking about with this show is how it really upholds the myth of progress. I want to be clear that the idea of change or transformation, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I'm a big Octavia Butler fan and all her books are about the necessity of change, being able to adapt because the only thing that's consistent in this world is that nothing is consistent and that change is just how it is. So there's nothing wrong with that. But there is an issue with having this linear model of change, this idea of progress, as being this one-size-fits-all trajectory where everyone has to take the saem steps to reach this idealized self. I think that's what the show is really doing, it lays out this framework where it's like, if you do x, y, z, you can become the best version of yourself. THat best version of yourself is not particular to what each of these people necessarily wants or thinks or how they go about their lives, it's really about the cast coming in and telling them this idealized version of yourself is one that's professional, one that is groomed, one that is independent, one that can take care of themselves but knows when to ask friends for help. And this is of course, classed, it's gendered, it's racialized, it's based on these normative ideals that come from colonialism and capitalism and Christianity, in what a self-realized adult should look like. It might sound like, what's the big deal, they're just trying to help people improve themselves, but it really become problematic when we think about where our concept of the ideal self comes from and that not only is that rooted in colonialism, and for example like, native children being stolen from their families and forced into boarding schools where they were taught these saem types of hygiene practices, but we also see it reinforced in things like development models, nonprofits or charity organizations going into non-U.S. countries to try and teach people the right steps they need to take to reach their ideal life. It's also based in eugenics which is literal, racist breeding of humans to try and reach this peak white humanity, and it also makes me think.. this is a real tangent, thanks y'all, it also makes me think about medical models. We talked about the medical model of transness, that sees being trans as something that needs to be corrected through surgery or through medical treatment, it also connects to the medical model of disability that sees disabled bodies as things that need to be corrected and fixed. So I just want to tie that thread in this show to what I think is a much darker, more harmful social practice at large, on the macro scale.

Tiana: Yeah. I think in some episodes we do see some collaborations with the participant like, what do you want for yourself, what do you want out of this experience? But I would also argue they are likely choosing participants that align with the values and practices that they are enforcing. We hire people that we like or agree with. So, it would be great to see participants that have a different set of values and goals than what the show's regular trajectory is and I would like to see the hosts adapt to that.

Alexia: Mhm, absolutely. Where's our anti-capitalist, prison abolitionist dykes? 

Tiana: You know? Bring them in! 

Alexia: [laughs] So I'm tempted to go on academic tangent number two, sorry y'all. But this conversation is making me think of Sara Ahmed. Tiana, you know, she's my queen. She's a queer feminist of color writer and theorist, she's one of those rare academics who actually really stands by the values that she writes about, which is not always the case, so be careful if you ever meet your academic idols, they might dissapoint you. But anyways, Sara Ahmed has this wonderful book called the Promise of Happiness and in it, she talks about happiness as a disciplinary concept. And what I mean by that, is that we are often sold this idea of happiness being a thing we can achieve if we just follow x, y, z steps. Often those x, y, z steps are things that reinforce capitalism, heteropatriarchy, being apolitical. If you are someone who deviates from the dominant scripts, if you're someone who doesn't go to college, get your middle-class job, get married, and buy a home, and if you're suffering, well that's, that's your fault because you didn't follow this happiness script, you're not following the steps you're supposed to follow. So, this is also where the figure of hte feminist killjoy comes in, because teh killjoy is a person who recognizes racism, sexism, capitalism, all the isms in the world, and the killjoy kills joy, points out these issues and disrupts happiness. Often, what ends up happening is the killjoy becomes the source of bad feeling, people say you should lighten up, or you carry too much, or.. what else do people say to killjoys?

Tiana: I'm actually thinking about Jonathan because as the seasons have gone on, there's just more and more moments actually of JOnathan disrupting certain things or in the middle of hearing something strange, let's unpack that!, with the group. I feel like he does try to disrupt, mostly things around gender norms and masculinity. I think, at least how it's all been curated, I haven't seen too much back and forth or anybody being annoyed or tired of Jonathan's feedback, but I am curious what that will look like over time. I would love to see more of that. 

Alexia: So Jonathon is maybe, slightly our killjoy in this show? 

Tiana: Sometimes. 

Alexia: But it also feels fitting that of course the one trans cast member is also the one who's going to be saying, hey wait, let's talk about gender! But I'm also like, JVN, where are you when we're talking about race and capitalism? But anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if someone is unhappy, it's often not the fault of the person who is unhappy but the fault of a society that we live in. If you are actually awrae of what's going on in the world, if your eyes are open and you're seeing injustice, hwo the fuck are you supposed to be a happy person? 

Tiana: I think it's really hard and I think there are a lot of people who see what's going on in the world, and if the show lived in closer proximity to that they may be able to offer better insight into happiness and what it looks like and what it feels like and how hard it is sometimes to create happiness and joy for yourself on a day to day. 

Alexia: But Tiana I feel like something you've also taught me is that we don't actually need to strive for happiness, all the time. That sadness is really important.

Tiana: I think it's really important for us to evaluate our proximity to sadness. I think it's really important for us to be close to sadness and to sit with it and express it and to build an alliance with sadness because I think it has a lot to teach. I think when you can manage being uncomfortable better you can manage conflict better or other situations in which you're uncomfortable. I think that the show is uncomfortable with sitting with anything that's unresolved, sadness, and failure. Those are all things that need to be fixed, those are all places we need to immediately strategize to move away from. I don't know, those solutions don't always fix what's actually going on. It may fix the temporary feeling of failure or sadness but it is not going to uproot sadness. You will never not experience failure. And so, it would be wonderful if we could witness people sitting a little bit more with those things. Because I don't think everybody also gets to experience solutions to all their problems, either. I know I haven't. And I think it might be affirming for me to see that on television. 

Alexia: If I can add to what you're saying too, you used the manage a few times, like manage your sadness, manage your anger. I think the show is doing that, but in a very different way than you're talking about, so I just want to pull that out and clarify it, if that's okay. I think the show would say, we're going to manage your sadness by, you're going to go to the gym. Or you're going to call your friend when you feel sad, like solutions. Versus managing sadness in terms of, I'm Feeling sad, I'm going to work through that, not by trying to do these short-term solutions that make me feel better in the moment, but to really sit with why am I feeling sad, where is this coming from, what does this feel like. It's a very different way of attuning to our emotions. I really love what you said too about how this connects to conflict resolution, we could maybe even think about transformative justice. Because if we are taught to avoid bad feelings, that means we're also taught to avoid conflict and when we avoid conflict, that's actually when things fester, when things get worse, row hen social relations just rupture. If we want to be in relationship with people, we have to know how to push through those bad feelings and have conversations and work through feelings that don't feel good.

Tiana: And when we can hold ourselves with those feelings of sadness, anger, grief, desperation, depression, anxiety, when you can hold those things with yourself, you can also do that with other people, with people you love and care about. I think in the U.S. there is just a huge deficit in mental health awareness, conversation, care, institutionally and socially how we handle mental health or negative feelings. That makes me think there are also largely a lack of skills around managing the set hinges. I think it's really important to manifest those things for yourself for your own personal safety and overall well being, and for the people around you. 

Alexia: Do we ever see anyone on this show disclose having a mental illness?

Tiana: I think.. I don't think explicitly. I feel like if depression is talked about, or sadness, it's connected to a particular time period. It's pinpointed to a moment.

Alexia: That's what I was thinking about too. I'm not trying to diagnose or pathologize anyone, but I think in watching the show, we see a lot of examples where people just seem depressed, people seem to be dealing with anxiety. However they might explain their experience, people are going through some real mental health struggles that we see on the show, but it's never framed that way. And I think you're absolutely right Tiana that it's often pointed to as like, this person is struggling but it's because they lost their mom five years ago or this person is struggling but it's because they don't talk to their family anymore. Which also, it makes me think again about medical models and for example, PTSD, that's an understanding of trauma where it's like, this one thing happened to you and now you're still dealing with the effects, versus a feminist approach to trauma which is like, there are all tehset hings in the world that are constantly traumatizing and we live within that matrix and we can't just neatly pinpoint it into these categories, it's so much more expansive and complicated.

Tiana: Mhm. But television does mostly point to these single moments. I've been watching the show Intervention [laughs] and they do the same thing to try and explain addiction. Oh, their parents divorced when they were eight years old and that's why they're using [laughs]. So anyhow, just to say, I think television and movies often do this. They try to chop it up to something nice and neat and very material too, it has to be some kind of... parents being divorced, assault or abuse whether it be a single moment or over time, loss of a sibling, all those things. You're totally right, there's not the interwoven like... just what you said [laughs].

Alexia: Yeah, and again this is harmful because when we see these messages circulating in the media or when psychiatrists and doctors re enforce these ideas, it trickles down into our interpersonal relationships and people who are still grieving, still traumatizing, whatever it may be, constantly don't get patience or compassion from even people they are in close relationship with who might be like, this happened ten years ago, get over it. But healing is not linear. Time is a construct, it ain't real. 

Tiana: Yeah. But largely medicine doesn't recognize that either, so it actually isn't a surprise TV isn't doing much better to describe people's experiences with sadness, grief, depression, anxiety, and other things.

Alexia: On a different note but related, what do we think then of how the show approaches vulnerability? Becuase one way this hsow is disrupting norms, a little bit, is by really asking for vulnerbaility from the participatns at large, but especially from a lot of men, cisgender white men in particular who we see have not been socialized into talking about their feelings.

Tiana: I think the vulnerability looks like a lot of things. Number one, you have these strangers coming into your home, going through all your things. I know that would make me so uncomfortable with someone touching all of my things and also asking me why I made all the decisions I made to have these things in my home, my clothes, or my products, asking me about my routines. That person is in a vulnerable position.

Alexia: It's invasive.

Tiana: Yes, it is. But I also like to see that these men are getting really present with their choices and how they do or do not care for themselves and these people are talking to them about it and being really straight forward. So I think there's the little, material things in their homes but also like...I think it's really hard to have people sit there and ask you, how are you taking care of yourself, and how are you not taking care of yourself? While I don't agree largely, or I'm uncomfortable with a lot of the approaches the cast has towards care, I do think that these are really important conversations to be having with individuals. I mean, how often do you have people sit down and ask you, how are you taking care of yourself and how are you not? I was going through your closet and I noticed you haven't bought anything for yourself [laughs]

Alexia: You, you are the one who has that conversation with me [laughs]

Tiana: And we're in partnership, you know. That to me is a great practice in.. I don't know if it's vulnerablity but...

Alexia: In care, right?

Tiana: In care, yes. 

Alexia: So I want to talk more about these care networks right now because there's this interesting way in which this show, without ever naming capitalism, is almost a documentary of, like, the effects of capitalism mostly among middle-class people in the United STates. WHat we see throughout is so many people's identities are completely wrapped up in their work. I'd say the number one pattern we see across the episodes are people who work too much and have no identity or pastimes when they come home. We also see a lot of people who are completely isolated and disconnected who don't have support systems or care networks. I feel like a lot of what the cast does in particular is to really show the importance of not only vulnerability but physical touch and affection. I do wish they asked for consent before they walk in and start hugging people, but I feel like there's this really interesting way the show is showing us just how completely alienated people feel under this system we live in right now.

Tiana: I can totally relate to what you described about labor. I mostly have had a hard time understanding and imagining myself outside of labor. For a long time, and even when we started seeing each other, I didn't have a lot of hobbies or things I was doing outside of work and was extremely isolated from other people. I think this is a product of capitalism, these people's conditions and what I was experiencing. It's too damn bad the show misses the opportunity to offer critical conversation around that. what they boil it down to is the individual not investing in their relationships and not putting time and energy versus recognizing that, yeah, after you work 40+ hours a week you're frickin exhausted. I know for myself, my time off was all to recuperate my energy and come back to being a human again but by the time I caught up, it was time to work and that perspective is lacking.

Alexia: I like what you pulled out about how it's treated as an individual problem, like, you're not reaching out more, or they train them, this is the person you should rely on. We need a collective reimagining, actually, of care networks, something that doesn't just fall upon our romantic partnerships or the nuclear family. Especially now with COVID and quarantine, I think people are really starting to realize that oh wait, that's not enough. The one or two people in my household, if you live with people, that's not enough to meet all my care needs. I think especially now it's becoming clear we need to be a lot more intentional about creating strong networks of people that we care for and that we can ask for care from. So basically I'm like, Queer Eye, bring on Mia Mingus, do something podmapping exercises, to help people really be intentional about their relationships and investing in them.

Tiana: I agree with you.

Alexia: I'll put a link to the pod mapping exercise in the show notes if anyone is interested. I know for myself, I had come across the concept before and thought it was interesting but I was like, I don't need to do that, I know who my people are. But I actually did sit down and do the exercise and found it really eye-opening and interesting so highly recommended. Is there anything, not that we can't end on a killjoy note because that' sliterally why this podcast is here, but is there anything nice to say about Queer Eye? Is there anything we think they're doing well we haven't given them credit for at this point?

Tiana: I think the hosts show us an array of care. I think they show some really great examples on how we can treat our friends and what questions we can ask our friends about how they're caring for themselves or not caring for themselves. I think Karamo has some really amazing conversations with participants about their feelings and how they're doing and makes space for men to just talk and be heard and affirmed and their array of emotions be celebrated, and encourages participants to invest in their relationships. While I don't think the answer to every problem is to immediately find a solution, I do think it's great that Karamo encourages participants to be accountable to ways they may have failed their relationships or made a mistake, to think about it, reflect, and follow up with some action. I also think that having a material home is a vital piece of health. I think it's really incredible that they invest in people's homes and transform them into beautiful spaces that folks can feel safe and celebrated and feel good in. I think making home is a beautiful process and I think that's really wonderful the cast is able to provide that for folks. I also, I like that food is incorporated in talking about care. It gets folks thinking about, how do they want to cook for themselves? Because we do find with a lot of participants they don't cook for themselves. I think the conversation around food is often sharing your meal with friends and family and people you love.

Alexia: Yeah, that's true.

Tiana: And while I don't agree with all of Tan's fashion advice or his strategies for trying to make people look thinner, and it does seem like largely his fashion is informed by whiteness, I do think it's cool that they also provide people with clothes that they like. I like that the participants get to pick it out themselves and I think having clothes that feel good can be really life changing and affirming for people. I think this is especially true for trans people, that they have clothing that is affirming to their gender identity and to how they want to present to the world. Jonathan I think is great for a lot of different reasons. I think Jonathan is really silly and very sweet and affectionate with the cast and the participants so I feel like Jonathan really leads by example. I think he's a very great model for a lot of the men in the show. He also is really able to keep this energy and every once in a while killjoy in the sense of, hey let's unpack that, or hey actually, it can look this way. I think Jonathan is really clever about that, because sometimes you have to be clever with killjoying, or it's not received, period. So those are some things that I enjoy.

Alexia: Alright y'all, we talked a lot of shit but I think we did it with care and nuance. We're tired, honestly. We're trying to eat some nachos tonight and play some Catan. So let's stop the episode here. Thank you so much for tuning in. I think there's going to be a lot of thoughts in response to this episode, in response to Queer Eye, pelase let me know what yout hink. YOu can follow me on instagram and twitter at whatevertvpod. I also have an email, it's whatevertvpod at gmail dot com. Please reach out to me, I would love to know your thoughts on the episode, your own takes, things we maybe didn't cover or could have covered differently. If you can take a minute, please rate and review the podcast. It is a very small, queer of color DIY operation and I would love for more poeple to find it. Rating and reviewing is one way you can do that. Thanks for tuning in. Take care of yourselves.

Tiana: Hidey ho!

Alexia: Smell ya later [Tiana laughs]